4 ms·

> I don’t believe those living “normal lives” in East Germany or the Soviet era considered the police to be evil and invasive the way we do today. "normal life

> I don’t believe those living “normal lives” in East Germany or the Soviet era considered the police to be evil and invasive the way we do today. "normal life" under the Stasi was constant political terror and suppression. The death counts are low because they thought death too little of a penalty for opposing them - they used psychological warfare (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung) and torture instead. The International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims states that there were between 300,000 and 500,000 victims of the Stasi's use of psychological warfare, direct physical torture and gross human rights violations: https://web.archive.org/web/20210909114942/https://irct.org/media-and-resources/latest-news/article/788?ref=tjournal.ru https://web.archive.org/web/20210909114942/https://irct.org/....

grim_io 2mo ago
Imagine the stories the currently ICE-detained could tell. Hunted in the streets like animals and stuck in cages, with no right to due process. Sure, not as bad. Woohoo.
- TimTheTinker 2mo ago
  Be that as it may, observe that the directions are opposite. Planning, attempting to, or helping people escape (not stay) was the #1 reason for Stasi arrests. Specifically, the most frequent Stasi arrest charges were Republikflucht ("fleeing the republic") and Fluchthelfer ("helping others flee") Also, the Stasi ran on roughly 1 informant per 60–180 residents. Your network of friends, family, co-workers, and neighbors would have several. They officially criminalized private speech, correspondence and travel. The US surveillance system is bad, but the Stasi informant network and set of official consequences was at such a level as to cause constant fear and dread for everyone.
  - nelox 2mo ago
    Indeed. The rising flood of people feeling East for West Berlin was the very reason for the construction of the Berlin Wall.
    - bentley 1mo ago
      “Berlin Wall”? You mean the Antifaschistischer Schutzwall.
  - inigyou 1mo ago
    So it's not the same unless it's the exact same? Like, with such good technology now, why would they waste time on so many informants? A Flock camera can replace several informants.
    - TimTheTinker 1mo ago
      So you don't think there's any difference between - as a citizen, being arrested for trying to leave - as an illegal alien, being arrested for trying to stay Those are literally structural opposites of each other.
      - dredmorbius 1mo ago
        Both are restrictions on freedom of movement.
        TimTheTinker 1mo ago
        Have you ever traveled internationally? Every country I've ever been to especially in Europe had strict rules about how long I could stay. Iceland and the UK in particular. They wouldn't even let me in at London Heathrow without a printed out return ticket (I had to run over to the British Airways desk to get a copy). Either way - I was not allowed to stay longer than a few weeks. That's not a wrong thing, it's very normal. If you want to stay, you have to apply for residency.
        dredmorbius 1mo ago
        U.S. reliance on immigrant labour is key to this discussion, and strongly colours all elements. It is a direct legacy of early slave labour (Blacks in the East, native Americans in the West) as well as indentured servitude. Importation of an underprivileged labour class dates to the first days of the Republic as well, and includes the Germans, Irish, Italians, Greeks, Chinese ("coolies"), Mexicans ("Braceros"), and in the post-WWII era an increasing number of Central and Latin American immigrants. By 1) relying on such labour and 2) denying either lawful entry or any plausible path to permanent status for the vast majority of these workers and their families, not to mention many, many, many broken promises along the way (asylum, DREAM Act, don't get me started on Native American treaties), the U.S. has de facto maintained a legally-underprivileged and disadvantaged working class long after the statutory prohibition of (most) slavery and indentured servitude. Yes, there are also economic and political circumstances within the US geopolitical orbit which encourage inward migration. That too cannot be separated from long-standing U.S. foreign, economic, and military policies within the region.
- mc32 2mo ago
  As others point out, in the DDR one could not LEAVE. The main reason we have to have large sweeps for people coming here illegally is because administrations other than Obama and Trump turned a blind eye and did little enforcement. The Biden admin went to far as being negligent in their enforcement, so now there is a lot of backlog. There are very few if any country that does not enforce immigration rules. Let any American try to live illegally in Canada. Sure, they can live under the radar like you can in Mexico too, but if they catch up to you, goodbye. Mexico doesn’t even treat its own returning citizens well. If you have not been a taxpayer you have to assume many things tax paying Mexicans get for free like education and healthcare. People act like we’re an aberration for enforcing immigration laws. We’re not. Go check out South Africa and see how they treat illegals.
  - grim_io 2mo ago
    It doesn't bode well for the US to compare itself to others in this regard. The one place where any hard working person was welcome. What is the protectionism even for? The US doesn't have a great social system that can be exploited. Those"illegals"? They were making sandwiches and cleaning toilets, and this is their reward.
    - mc32 2mo ago
      I prefer the Japanese way and the Swiss way. Their citizens come first, foreigners come second. The needs of citizens come before the need for cheap labor. Every job is a decent job. No job is so bad that they can only get illegals to do them. Yes we can have legal immigrants that fill skills gaps. Thats not an issue for 95% of Americans so long as it’s done justly (and not simply a way to pay workers less).
    - TimTheTinker 2mo ago
      It's less about what they did after arriving and more about border violation itself. Immigration has an official legal process to follow. Why is that so bad? If the law needs to change - fine, change it. But allowing people to break the law is to enable collapse of the rule of law.
detourdog 2mo ago
Nobody that I know of in the USA felt compelled to build a giant balloon to fly their family to Canada yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany_balloon_escape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany_balloon_escape If we don’t try to delete the data off our phones then the anti-freedom brigade has already won.
- rangerelf 2mo ago
  We're just not at that stage yet, but we're getting there. It's already a crime (in the books) to drive out of several red states for women's health care reasons, and they'll follow you on flock if they can. Mark Bray had his and his family's airline tickets to Spain out of Newark "mysteriously cancelled" while in line after checking in their baggage.
  - unclebucknasty 2mo ago
    I sometimes wonder what the tipping point is for people, or whether there actually is one for many. It's as if they are looking for an exacting duplicate of previous regimes before they become concerned—the agency name must be "Stasi" and uniforms must be of the same color.
    - detourdog 2mo ago
      I think we have to wait for our moment of protest to arrive. We should keep our eyes open for opportunities for civil disobedience.
      - inigyou 1mo ago
        The moment never happens. It happened in all other descents to fascism, just like this one, that people kept waiting for the moment to protest and it never came and eventually it was too late.
        detourdog 1mo ago
inigyou 1mo ago
We think of them that way now in hindsight. But they could still buy milk and eggs.

grim_io 2mo ago

Imagine the stories the currently ICE-detained could tell. Hunted in the streets like animals and stuck in cages, with no right to due process. Sure, not as bad. Woohoo.

TimTheTinker 2mo ago
Be that as it may, observe that the directions are opposite. Planning, attempting to, or helping people escape (not stay) was the #1 reason for Stasi arrests. Specifically, the most frequent Stasi arrest charges were Republikflucht ("fleeing the republic") and Fluchthelfer ("helping others flee") Also, the Stasi ran on roughly 1 informant per 60–180 residents. Your network of friends, family, co-workers, and neighbors would have several. They officially criminalized private speech, correspondence and travel. The US surveillance system is bad, but the Stasi informant network and set of official consequences was at such a level as to cause constant fear and dread for everyone.
- nelox 2mo ago
  Indeed. The rising flood of people feeling East for West Berlin was the very reason for the construction of the Berlin Wall.
  - bentley 1mo ago
    “Berlin Wall”? You mean the Antifaschistischer Schutzwall.
- inigyou 1mo ago
  So it's not the same unless it's the exact same? Like, with such good technology now, why would they waste time on so many informants? A Flock camera can replace several informants.
  - TimTheTinker 1mo ago
    So you don't think there's any difference between - as a citizen, being arrested for trying to leave - as an illegal alien, being arrested for trying to stay Those are literally structural opposites of each other.
    - dredmorbius 1mo ago
      Both are restrictions on freedom of movement.
      - TimTheTinker 1mo ago
        Have you ever traveled internationally? Every country I've ever been to especially in Europe had strict rules about how long I could stay. Iceland and the UK in particular. They wouldn't even let me in at London Heathrow without a printed out return ticket (I had to run over to the British Airways desk to get a copy). Either way - I was not allowed to stay longer than a few weeks. That's not a wrong thing, it's very normal. If you want to stay, you have to apply for residency.
        dredmorbius 1mo ago
        U.S. reliance on immigrant labour is key to this discussion, and strongly colours all elements. It is a direct legacy of early slave labour (Blacks in the East, native Americans in the West) as well as indentured servitude. Importation of an underprivileged labour class dates to the first days of the Republic as well, and includes the Germans, Irish, Italians, Greeks, Chinese ("coolies"), Mexicans ("Braceros"), and in the post-WWII era an increasing number of Central and Latin American immigrants. By 1) relying on such labour and 2) denying either lawful entry or any plausible path to permanent status for the vast majority of these workers and their families, not to mention many, many, many broken promises along the way (asylum, DREAM Act, don't get me started on Native American treaties), the U.S. has de facto maintained a legally-underprivileged and disadvantaged working class long after the statutory prohibition of (most) slavery and indentured servitude. Yes, there are also economic and political circumstances within the US geopolitical orbit which encourage inward migration. That too cannot be separated from long-standing U.S. foreign, economic, and military policies within the region.
mc32 2mo ago
As others point out, in the DDR one could not LEAVE. The main reason we have to have large sweeps for people coming here illegally is because administrations other than Obama and Trump turned a blind eye and did little enforcement. The Biden admin went to far as being negligent in their enforcement, so now there is a lot of backlog. There are very few if any country that does not enforce immigration rules. Let any American try to live illegally in Canada. Sure, they can live under the radar like you can in Mexico too, but if they catch up to you, goodbye. Mexico doesn’t even treat its own returning citizens well. If you have not been a taxpayer you have to assume many things tax paying Mexicans get for free like education and healthcare. People act like we’re an aberration for enforcing immigration laws. We’re not. Go check out South Africa and see how they treat illegals.
- grim_io 2mo ago
  It doesn't bode well for the US to compare itself to others in this regard. The one place where any hard working person was welcome. What is the protectionism even for? The US doesn't have a great social system that can be exploited. Those"illegals"? They were making sandwiches and cleaning toilets, and this is their reward.
  - mc32 2mo ago
    I prefer the Japanese way and the Swiss way. Their citizens come first, foreigners come second. The needs of citizens come before the need for cheap labor. Every job is a decent job. No job is so bad that they can only get illegals to do them. Yes we can have legal immigrants that fill skills gaps. Thats not an issue for 95% of Americans so long as it’s done justly (and not simply a way to pay workers less).
  - TimTheTinker 2mo ago
    It's less about what they did after arriving and more about border violation itself. Immigration has an official legal process to follow. Why is that so bad? If the law needs to change - fine, change it. But allowing people to break the law is to enable collapse of the rule of law.

detourdog 2mo ago

Nobody that I know of in the USA felt compelled to build a giant balloon to fly their family to Canada yet. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany_balloon_escape https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/East_Germany_balloon_escape If we don’t try to delete the data off our phones then the anti-freedom brigade has already won.

rangerelf 2mo ago
We're just not at that stage yet, but we're getting there. It's already a crime (in the books) to drive out of several red states for women's health care reasons, and they'll follow you on flock if they can. Mark Bray had his and his family's airline tickets to Spain out of Newark "mysteriously cancelled" while in line after checking in their baggage.
- unclebucknasty 2mo ago
  I sometimes wonder what the tipping point is for people, or whether there actually is one for many. It's as if they are looking for an exacting duplicate of previous regimes before they become concerned—the agency name must be "Stasi" and uniforms must be of the same color.
  - detourdog 2mo ago
    I think we have to wait for our moment of protest to arrive. We should keep our eyes open for opportunities for civil disobedience.
    - inigyou 1mo ago
      The moment never happens. It happened in all other descents to fascism, just like this one, that people kept waiting for the moment to protest and it never came and eventually it was too late.
      - detourdog 1mo ago

inigyou 1mo ago

We think of them that way now in hindsight. But they could still buy milk and eggs.