4 ms·

its only with the benefit of hindsight (and being on the winning side- thus the propaganda was never dispelled) that we consider the stasi and so on the way we

by dijit 2mo ago

its only with the benefit of hindsight (and being on the winning side- thus the propaganda was never dispelled) that we consider the stasi and so on the way we do. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck.. might just be a duck. I don’t believe those living “normal lives” in East Germany or the Soviet era considered the police to be evil and invasive the way we do today.

leonidasrup 2mo ago
Soviet era under Stalin was brutal. Soviet famine of 1930–1933 "It is estimated that 5.7 to 8.7 million people died from starvation across the Soviet Union. In addition, 50 to 70 million Soviet citizens starved during the famine but ultimately survived." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%9333 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%93... Great Purge "Scholars estimate the death toll of the Great Purge at 700,000 to 1.2 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge
- dijit 2mo ago
  You might not realise it, but you're proving my point to some extent. We don't look at the deaths of our own people as "oppressive" despite the fact that the circumstances that caused them to die was our system. I'm not some bleeding heart liberal or anti-capitalist... I just have an open mind to the idea that we're not necessarily the good guys just because we are us and I look at what is factually true - as in, how could we be described by a non-sympathetic entity. Everyone is their own hero. Nobody believes sincerely that they're the baddie. Chronic lower respiratory diseases account for 145k people a year in the US, and that is a consequence (largely) of car dependence... Or, more directly, 20,000 people a year die due to malnutrition and starvation, tallied over years (as most do) that can rapidly rise to over 100k in a half-decade. The UK has an excess mortality rate of 330,000 linked to healthcare cuts (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/05/over-330000-excess-deaths-in-great-britain-linked-to-austerity-finds-study https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/05/over-330000...). I get that the numbers were talking about are much higher, but it doesn't follow logically to me that ordinary citizens knew that their government was the "bad" one with its actions. Hell, I know Russian families who genuinely believe Putin is doing the right thing right now. So, I don't blindly accept that my government is right just because I think "we're the goodies".
  - leonidasrup 2mo ago
    I can't comment on the state of UK healthcare, but regarding the last paragraph, I too know Russian families who genuinely believe Putin is doing the right thing right now. I know Russians who want to have nothing to do with Putin and want to live their life. I have worked with both Russians and Ukrainians who fled Russia and Ukraine to escape mobilization (Personal note: it was interesting to see how good cooperation they had).
- Retric 2mo ago
  We blame the Soviet government for famine, but that’s not necessarily the opinion of people living at the time. Famine tended to occur every ~10 years due to natural weather variability so while 1930-1933 was unusually brutal it was just one of a very long string of famine. For example the Russian famine of 1921–1922 killed 5 million from a drought + WWI. Which was preceded by the famine of 1906-1908 which was preceded by the famine of 1901–1902, though these where less significant. Famine was so common you need extreme outliers like 1601–1603 which killed ~1/3 of the population before they tend to show up in history books.
  - leonidasrup 2mo ago
    Statement of the State Duma. April 2, 2008. The regions of the USSR (the Volga region, the Central Black Earth Region, the North Caucasus, the Urals, the Crimea, part of Western Siberia), Kazakhstan, Ukraine, and Belarus have suffered from the result of the famine caused by forced collectivization. About 7 million people were killed by hunger and illnesses associated with malnutrition in 1932–1933. This tragedy does not have and cannot have internationally established signs of genocide and should not be the subject of contemporary political speculation. Deputies of the State Duma, honoring the victims of the 1930s famine on the territory of the USSR, strongly condemn the regime that has neglected the lives of people for the achievement of economic and political goals, and proclaim the inadmissibility of the revival in the formerly included in the Soviet Union, totalitarian regimes that neglected the rights and lives of their citizens. https://web.archive.org/web/20230329195700/https://holodomormuseum.org.ua/en/recognition-of-holodomor-as-genocide-in-the-world/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230329195700/https://holodomor... "The causes of the Holodomor, which was a famine in Soviet Ukraine during 1932 and 1933 that resulted in the death of around 3–5 million people, are the subject of scholarly and political debate, particularly surrounding the Holodomor genocide question. Soviet historians Stephen Wheatcroft and J. Arch Getty believe the famine was the unintended consequence of problems arising from Soviet agricultural collectivization which was designed to accelerate the program of industrialization in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin. Other academics conclude policies were intentionally designed to cause the famine. Some scholars and political leaders claim that the famine may be classified as a genocide under the definition of genocide that entered international law with the 1948 Genocide Convention." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor
TimTheTinker 2mo ago
> I don’t believe those living “normal lives” in East Germany or the Soviet era considered the police to be evil and invasive the way we do today. "normal life" under the Stasi was constant political terror and suppression. The death counts are low because they thought death too little of a penalty for opposing them - they used psychological warfare (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung) and torture instead. The International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims states that there were between 300,000 and 500,000 victims of the Stasi's use of psychological warfare, direct physical torture and gross human rights violations: https://web.archive.org/web/20210909114942/https://irct.org/media-and-resources/latest-news/article/788?ref=tjournal.ru https://web.archive.org/web/20210909114942/https://irct.org/....
- grim_io 2mo ago
  Imagine the stories the currently ICE-detained could tell. Hunted in the streets like animals and stuck in cages, with no right to due process. Sure, not as bad. Woohoo.
  - TimTheTinker 2mo ago
    Be that as it may, observe that the directions are opposite. Planning, attempting to, or helping people escape (not stay) was the #1 reason for Stasi arrests. Specifically, the most frequent Stasi arrest charges were Republikflucht ("fleeing the republic") and Fluchthelfer ("helping others flee") Also, the Stasi ran on roughly 1 informant per 60–180 residents. Your network of friends, family, co-workers, and neighbors would have several. They officially criminalized private speech, correspondence and travel. The US surveillance system is bad, but the Stasi informant network and set of official consequences was at such a level as to cause constant fear and dread for everyone.
    - nelox 2mo ago
      Indeed. The rising flood of people feeling East for West Berlin was the very reason for the construction of the Berlin Wall.
shevy-java 2mo ago
> I don’t believe those living “normal lives” in East Germany or the Soviet era considered the police to be evil and invasive the way we do today. That's wrong. I am sure you do not speak German, because otherwise you'd have a lot more information available. If you do speak German, listen to Dieter Hallervorden. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJh9ejnpvFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJh9ejnpvFc He explained why he escaped from the DDR. And they ALL knew that the cops were sniffing on them. Of course they considered the cops as evil and invasive, even by today standards.
- dijit 2mo ago
  But I consider what the US/UK are doing to be invasive, and if the governments fell I might be proven right (hell, Snowden already proved it over a decade ago- yet here we are). He was not a “normal person”, normal people are like your neighbour who lives simply and doesn’t engage in politics except to share their discomfort about some relatively trivial grievance like the price of eggs.
- stirlo 2mo ago
  Is that any different to how African Americans feel about the police? Or how Latinos feel about ICE today?
inigyou 2mo ago
German people largely thought Hitler was the good guy and there's no way the h-caust actually happened, until several decades after the war ended.

by dijit 2mo ago

leonidasrup 2mo ago

Soviet era under Stalin was brutal. Soviet famine of 1930–1933 "It is estimated that 5.7 to 8.7 million people died from starvation across the Soviet Union. In addition, 50 to 70 million Soviet citizens starved during the famine but ultimately survived." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%9333 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_famine_of_1932%E2%80%93... Great Purge "Scholars estimate the death toll of the Great Purge at 700,000 to 1.2 million." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge

dijit 2mo ago
You might not realise it, but you're proving my point to some extent. We don't look at the deaths of our own people as "oppressive" despite the fact that the circumstances that caused them to die was our system. I'm not some bleeding heart liberal or anti-capitalist... I just have an open mind to the idea that we're not necessarily the good guys just because we are us and I look at what is factually true - as in, how could we be described by a non-sympathetic entity. Everyone is their own hero. Nobody believes sincerely that they're the baddie. Chronic lower respiratory diseases account for 145k people a year in the US, and that is a consequence (largely) of car dependence... Or, more directly, 20,000 people a year die due to malnutrition and starvation, tallied over years (as most do) that can rapidly rise to over 100k in a half-decade. The UK has an excess mortality rate of 330,000 linked to healthcare cuts (https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/05/over-330000-excess-deaths-in-great-britain-linked-to-austerity-finds-study https://www.theguardian.com/business/2022/oct/05/over-330000...). I get that the numbers were talking about are much higher, but it doesn't follow logically to me that ordinary citizens knew that their government was the "bad" one with its actions. Hell, I know Russian families who genuinely believe Putin is doing the right thing right now. So, I don't blindly accept that my government is right just because I think "we're the goodies".
- leonidasrup 2mo ago
  I can't comment on the state of UK healthcare, but regarding the last paragraph, I too know Russian families who genuinely believe Putin is doing the right thing right now. I know Russians who want to have nothing to do with Putin and want to live their life. I have worked with both Russians and Ukrainians who fled Russia and Ukraine to escape mobilization (Personal note: it was interesting to see how good cooperation they had).
Retric 2mo ago
We blame the Soviet government for famine, but that’s not necessarily the opinion of people living at the time. Famine tended to occur every ~10 years due to natural weather variability so while 1930-1933 was unusually brutal it was just one of a very long string of famine. For example the Russian famine of 1921–1922 killed 5 million from a drought + WWI. Which was preceded by the famine of 1906-1908 which was preceded by the famine of 1901–1902, though these where less significant. Famine was so common you need extreme outliers like 1601–1603 which killed ~1/3 of the population before they tend to show up in history books.
- leonidasrup 2mo ago
  Statement of the State Duma. April 2, 2008. The regions of the USSR (the Volga region, the Central Black Earth Region, the North Caucasus, the Urals, the Crimea, part of Western Siberia), Kazakhstan, Ukraine, and Belarus have suffered from the result of the famine caused by forced collectivization. About 7 million people were killed by hunger and illnesses associated with malnutrition in 1932–1933. This tragedy does not have and cannot have internationally established signs of genocide and should not be the subject of contemporary political speculation. Deputies of the State Duma, honoring the victims of the 1930s famine on the territory of the USSR, strongly condemn the regime that has neglected the lives of people for the achievement of economic and political goals, and proclaim the inadmissibility of the revival in the formerly included in the Soviet Union, totalitarian regimes that neglected the rights and lives of their citizens. https://web.archive.org/web/20230329195700/https://holodomormuseum.org.ua/en/recognition-of-holodomor-as-genocide-in-the-world/ https://web.archive.org/web/20230329195700/https://holodomor... "The causes of the Holodomor, which was a famine in Soviet Ukraine during 1932 and 1933 that resulted in the death of around 3–5 million people, are the subject of scholarly and political debate, particularly surrounding the Holodomor genocide question. Soviet historians Stephen Wheatcroft and J. Arch Getty believe the famine was the unintended consequence of problems arising from Soviet agricultural collectivization which was designed to accelerate the program of industrialization in the Soviet Union under Joseph Stalin. Other academics conclude policies were intentionally designed to cause the famine. Some scholars and political leaders claim that the famine may be classified as a genocide under the definition of genocide that entered international law with the 1948 Genocide Convention." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Causes_of_the_Holodomor

TimTheTinker 2mo ago

> I don’t believe those living “normal lives” in East Germany or the Soviet era considered the police to be evil and invasive the way we do today. "normal life" under the Stasi was constant political terror and suppression. The death counts are low because they thought death too little of a penalty for opposing them - they used psychological warfare (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zersetzung) and torture instead. The International Rehabilitation Council for Torture Victims states that there were between 300,000 and 500,000 victims of the Stasi's use of psychological warfare, direct physical torture and gross human rights violations: https://web.archive.org/web/20210909114942/https://irct.org/media-and-resources/latest-news/article/788?ref=tjournal.ru https://web.archive.org/web/20210909114942/https://irct.org/....

grim_io 2mo ago
Imagine the stories the currently ICE-detained could tell. Hunted in the streets like animals and stuck in cages, with no right to due process. Sure, not as bad. Woohoo.
- TimTheTinker 2mo ago
  Be that as it may, observe that the directions are opposite. Planning, attempting to, or helping people escape (not stay) was the #1 reason for Stasi arrests. Specifically, the most frequent Stasi arrest charges were Republikflucht ("fleeing the republic") and Fluchthelfer ("helping others flee") Also, the Stasi ran on roughly 1 informant per 60–180 residents. Your network of friends, family, co-workers, and neighbors would have several. They officially criminalized private speech, correspondence and travel. The US surveillance system is bad, but the Stasi informant network and set of official consequences was at such a level as to cause constant fear and dread for everyone.
  - nelox 2mo ago
    Indeed. The rising flood of people feeling East for West Berlin was the very reason for the construction of the Berlin Wall.

shevy-java 2mo ago

> I don’t believe those living “normal lives” in East Germany or the Soviet era considered the police to be evil and invasive the way we do today. That's wrong. I am sure you do not speak German, because otherwise you'd have a lot more information available. If you do speak German, listen to Dieter Hallervorden. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJh9ejnpvFc https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJh9ejnpvFc He explained why he escaped from the DDR. And they ALL knew that the cops were sniffing on them. Of course they considered the cops as evil and invasive, even by today standards.

dijit 2mo ago
But I consider what the US/UK are doing to be invasive, and if the governments fell I might be proven right (hell, Snowden already proved it over a decade ago- yet here we are). He was not a “normal person”, normal people are like your neighbour who lives simply and doesn’t engage in politics except to share their discomfort about some relatively trivial grievance like the price of eggs.
stirlo 2mo ago
Is that any different to how African Americans feel about the police? Or how Latinos feel about ICE today?

inigyou 2mo ago

German people largely thought Hitler was the good guy and there's no way the h-caust actually happened, until several decades after the war ended.