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if the power plant generating the electricity is equal to the automobiles burning the fuel It's not. Even the worst, dirtiest coal plant is going to be more ef

by iyulaev 14y ago

if the power plant generating the electricity is equal to the automobiles burning the fuel It's not. Even the worst, dirtiest coal plant is going to be more efficient than your car engine, since it converts much more of the energy (given of as heat) into electricity. Economies of scale definitely apply to power plants.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
whalesalad 14y ago
You're right but then you get into a whole new can of worms: the inefficiency of energy storage and transportation. Gasoline loses less energy over time and distance than electricity does. And storing electricity in batteries is also 'lossy' as well.
- tadfisher 14y ago
  Keep in mind that there is a variable cost to transport the gasoline as well; you need to fuel tankers, power refineries, and fuel the trucks to transport the fuel to the pump.
  - r00fus 14y ago
    Yes, it would be a pretty ridiculous situation where the EROEI [1] calculation would favor gas-powered car engines vs. coal-powered electricity pumped through grids and stored in batteries. Gas powered motors are still less brittle than grid-powered ones - it'd be tough to power a military force on grid power for example, but at that scale we should be using local fission powerplants anyway (ie, nuke subs). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_inves...
- pilom 14y ago
  Fortunately all of these calculations have been done by scientists. http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c20/page_131.shtml http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c20/page_13... TLDR: Electric vehicles still win, but only just barely when you include the battery manufacturing costs.
  - justin66 14y ago
    Unfortunately that site design appears to have been done by scientists. Wow.
    - dboat 14y ago
      I don't think the downvotes for justin are merited. That site is remarkably ugly.
  - justin66 14y ago
    I really do think the downvotes were unfair: that site's layout is appalling. So appalling that I could only just now bring myself to read the bit that you think supports your statement. (perhaps there's more but there's no way I'm digging through all that chartjunk) The paragraph on that page that mentions batteries is not at all rigorous - it doesn't attempt to be. The statement "It could be predicted that most Priuses will be junked at age 10 years" strikes me as pretty contentious.
- mikeash 14y ago
  Don't forget that the story of gasoline begins with crude oil deep in the ground. This substance loses a lot of energy over time and distance between the ground and your tank.

by iyulaev 14y ago

deleted 14y ago

[deleted]

whalesalad 14y ago

You're right but then you get into a whole new can of worms: the inefficiency of energy storage and transportation. Gasoline loses less energy over time and distance than electricity does. And storing electricity in batteries is also 'lossy' as well.

tadfisher 14y ago
Keep in mind that there is a variable cost to transport the gasoline as well; you need to fuel tankers, power refineries, and fuel the trucks to transport the fuel to the pump.
- r00fus 14y ago
  Yes, it would be a pretty ridiculous situation where the EROEI [1] calculation would favor gas-powered car engines vs. coal-powered electricity pumped through grids and stored in batteries. Gas powered motors are still less brittle than grid-powered ones - it'd be tough to power a military force on grid power for example, but at that scale we should be using local fission powerplants anyway (ie, nuke subs). [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_invested http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_inves...
pilom 14y ago
Fortunately all of these calculations have been done by scientists. http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c20/page_131.shtml http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/withouthotair/c20/page_13... TLDR: Electric vehicles still win, but only just barely when you include the battery manufacturing costs.
- justin66 14y ago
  Unfortunately that site design appears to have been done by scientists. Wow.
  - dboat 14y ago
    I don't think the downvotes for justin are merited. That site is remarkably ugly.
- justin66 14y ago
  I really do think the downvotes were unfair: that site's layout is appalling. So appalling that I could only just now bring myself to read the bit that you think supports your statement. (perhaps there's more but there's no way I'm digging through all that chartjunk) The paragraph on that page that mentions batteries is not at all rigorous - it doesn't attempt to be. The statement "It could be predicted that most Priuses will be junked at age 10 years" strikes me as pretty contentious.
mikeash 14y ago
Don't forget that the story of gasoline begins with crude oil deep in the ground. This substance loses a lot of energy over time and distance between the ground and your tank.