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Can you further explain? Maybe I misunderstood you but if the power plant generating the electricity is equal to the automobiles burning the fuel, in the end, i

by hadem 14y ago

Can you further explain? Maybe I misunderstood you but if the power plant generating the electricity is equal to the automobiles burning the fuel, in the end, isn't it a wash? Similar to hybrid cars. They are better for the environment but that isn't that offset by the production of the batteries needed for the hybrid engine?

w1ntermute 14y ago
> if the power plant generating the electricity is equal to the automobiles burning the fuel, in the end, isn't it a wash? No. By abstracting the source of the energy, we can make one change in the method of power generation and immediately make a large number of electric cars "clean". So if we replace a coal plant with a nuclear or hydroelectric or solar plant, then everyone charging their electric cars with energy from that plant will suddenly be using clean energy. This isn't possible with the millions of gas cars out there, because they are only capable of using gas.
schiffern 14y ago
>Similar to hybrid cars. They are better for the environment but that isn't that offset by the production of the batteries needed for the hybrid engine? No. The oft-cited "Dust to Dust" report has been thoroughly debunked: http://grist.org/article/dust-to-dumb/ http://grist.org/article/dust-to-dumb/ For just one example, they assume (with no real justification) that a Hummer will last 300k miles and a Prius just 100k. Invalidating that single assumption flips the result, and it's not the only one. There's a false equivocacy going on in our heads when we fall victim to this kind of misinformation. "One advantage vs. one disadvantage. They must cancel out!" This is why it's important to do quantitative analysis. In reality, the addition of a battery and motor only adds about 10% to the embodied energy and disposal impact of a car, which itself is dwarfed by the fuel burned in its lifetime (by about 3:1). The interesting question for me is: why do people worry about the Nickel in their car's battery but not in their car's steel-alloy frame?
- mc32 14y ago
  IIRC, what worries some people is the REEs that go into the mfg of electric batteries. REE mining tends to be dirty and tends to be, for now, in counties with little in the way of enviro regulation monitoring mining methods, etc.
starpilot 14y ago
Consider the range of efficiency of driving depending on mode: 0 mpg - stopped at a light 15 mpg - typical city driving 35 mpg - typical highway driving A powerplant is always running its turbines. It's like car motor that is always on cruise control on the highway, without giving up energy to stop in traffic or throttle down.
- reportingsjr 14y ago
  Keep in mind that power plants do indeed spin their turbines down and spin them up again. This is due to the greatly increased demand for electricity during the day and reduced demand at night. This is why electricity is cheaper at night. They want people to move energy intensive stuff to run at night so it smooths out the grid energy usage cycle. The peak energy usage is normally right around dusk, since that is when people are getting home from work, lights are coming on, etc. If people charge their cars at this time that only makes things worse. Hopefully we get smart chargers that slow charging at this time, so while it doesn't cause a huge peak the car is still charging, and then increases charging power during the night. Just a thought.

by hadem 14y ago

w1ntermute 14y ago

> if the power plant generating the electricity is equal to the automobiles burning the fuel, in the end, isn't it a wash? No. By abstracting the source of the energy, we can make one change in the method of power generation and immediately make a large number of electric cars "clean". So if we replace a coal plant with a nuclear or hydroelectric or solar plant, then everyone charging their electric cars with energy from that plant will suddenly be using clean energy. This isn't possible with the millions of gas cars out there, because they are only capable of using gas.

schiffern 14y ago

>Similar to hybrid cars. They are better for the environment but that isn't that offset by the production of the batteries needed for the hybrid engine? No. The oft-cited "Dust to Dust" report has been thoroughly debunked: http://grist.org/article/dust-to-dumb/ http://grist.org/article/dust-to-dumb/ For just one example, they assume (with no real justification) that a Hummer will last 300k miles and a Prius just 100k. Invalidating that single assumption flips the result, and it's not the only one. There's a false equivocacy going on in our heads when we fall victim to this kind of misinformation. "One advantage vs. one disadvantage. They must cancel out!" This is why it's important to do quantitative analysis. In reality, the addition of a battery and motor only adds about 10% to the embodied energy and disposal impact of a car, which itself is dwarfed by the fuel burned in its lifetime (by about 3:1). The interesting question for me is: why do people worry about the Nickel in their car's battery but not in their car's steel-alloy frame?

mc32 14y ago
IIRC, what worries some people is the REEs that go into the mfg of electric batteries. REE mining tends to be dirty and tends to be, for now, in counties with little in the way of enviro regulation monitoring mining methods, etc.

starpilot 14y ago

Consider the range of efficiency of driving depending on mode: 0 mpg - stopped at a light 15 mpg - typical city driving 35 mpg - typical highway driving A powerplant is always running its turbines. It's like car motor that is always on cruise control on the highway, without giving up energy to stop in traffic or throttle down.

reportingsjr 14y ago
Keep in mind that power plants do indeed spin their turbines down and spin them up again. This is due to the greatly increased demand for electricity during the day and reduced demand at night. This is why electricity is cheaper at night. They want people to move energy intensive stuff to run at night so it smooths out the grid energy usage cycle. The peak energy usage is normally right around dusk, since that is when people are getting home from work, lights are coming on, etc. If people charge their cars at this time that only makes things worse. Hopefully we get smart chargers that slow charging at this time, so while it doesn't cause a huge peak the car is still charging, and then increases charging power during the night. Just a thought.