3 ms·

Not a surveillance network you know of. Knowing what we know now, why wouldn’t it be tapped, if they could get away with it?

by lazide 2mo ago

estearum 2mo ago
Well for one, there's not nearly enough of them to be valuable the way that Flock is. Two, they're pointed exclusively at roads. Three, their outputs don't show up in court cases as evidence, which itself dramatically reduces the danger (even if they potentially could maybe support parallel construction) Speed and stop cameras are very very good and should be virtually everywhere with extremely strict control on their outputs.
- lazide 2mo ago
  I see you haven’t heard of parallel construction.
  - estearum 2mo ago
    You see that I haven't heard of the thing that I explicitly mention in the exact comment you just replied to? In any case, an evidence modality that can only be used via parallel construction is still far, far, far less risky than one that can be freely introduced in court.
    - lazide 2mo ago
      Ah, I struggled to see your point of view if you didn’t, so I guess I skipped over it. Now I just struggle to understand the naïveté in general.
      - estearum 2mo ago
        Such are the challenges of being someone who can't read four sentences.
  - Freedom2 2mo ago
    Is there any evidence that they haven't heard of it, or is this an assumption from your part?
- pipmac 2mo ago
  > Three, their outputs don't show up in court cases as evidence That's not true - I was recently a juror on a UK trial where we were shown ANPR photography of the defendants' vehicles. Here's some other examples of cases in the UK where the prosecution presented the jury with ANPR evidence: https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/693b0db6b21a3a02e931ced1 https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/693b0db6b21a3a02e931ce... https://www.2hb.co.uk/news/class-a-drug-importation-trial-convictions https://www.2hb.co.uk/news/class-a-drug-importation-trial-co... https://www.2br.co.uk/sam-magee-kc-successfully-prosecutes-man-charged-with-the-murder-and-dismemberment-of-his-friend/ https://www.2br.co.uk/sam-magee-kc-successfully-prosecutes-m... https://www.svs-solicitors.co.uk/additional-notable-cases-2023/ https://www.svs-solicitors.co.uk/additional-notable-cases-20... https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/The%20King%20v%20James%20Alexander%20Smith.pdf https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/The%2...
  - estearum 2mo ago
    You misunderstood the thread. Automated speed cameras are not part of a surveillance network. ANPR networks are obviously created specifically for surveillance. GP said "I remember pushback to automated speed cameras" and I said sure, but that was still very different because they weren't part of a surveillance network. Your proof that ANPRs are used for surveillance illustrates the same difference I am pointing out. Then the gap between UK's government-owned ANPRs and the privately owned Flock cameras is still probably quite large. I don't know the UK's privacy laws, but they probably exist. Flock, as a private party in the US, essentially has zero controls whatsoever on how the data is used. Including – most critically – that the government can simply buy the data from Flock (sans warrant) that would be illegal for the government to produce itself.

Not a surveillance network you know of. Knowing what we know now, why wouldn’t it be tapped, if they could get away with it?

by lazide 2mo ago

Not a surveillance network you know of. Knowing what we know now, why wouldn’t it be tapped, if they could get away with it?

estearum 2mo ago

Well for one, there's not nearly enough of them to be valuable the way that Flock is. Two, they're pointed exclusively at roads. Three, their outputs don't show up in court cases as evidence, which itself dramatically reduces the danger (even if they potentially could maybe support parallel construction) Speed and stop cameras are very very good and should be virtually everywhere with extremely strict control on their outputs.

lazide 2mo ago
I see you haven’t heard of parallel construction.
- estearum 2mo ago
  You see that I haven't heard of the thing that I explicitly mention in the exact comment you just replied to? In any case, an evidence modality that can only be used via parallel construction is still far, far, far less risky than one that can be freely introduced in court.
  - lazide 2mo ago
    Ah, I struggled to see your point of view if you didn’t, so I guess I skipped over it. Now I just struggle to understand the naïveté in general.
    - estearum 2mo ago
      Such are the challenges of being someone who can't read four sentences.
- Freedom2 2mo ago
  Is there any evidence that they haven't heard of it, or is this an assumption from your part?
pipmac 2mo ago
> Three, their outputs don't show up in court cases as evidence That's not true - I was recently a juror on a UK trial where we were shown ANPR photography of the defendants' vehicles. Here's some other examples of cases in the UK where the prosecution presented the jury with ANPR evidence: https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/693b0db6b21a3a02e931ced1 https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/693b0db6b21a3a02e931ce... https://www.2hb.co.uk/news/class-a-drug-importation-trial-convictions https://www.2hb.co.uk/news/class-a-drug-importation-trial-co... https://www.2br.co.uk/sam-magee-kc-successfully-prosecutes-man-charged-with-the-murder-and-dismemberment-of-his-friend/ https://www.2br.co.uk/sam-magee-kc-successfully-prosecutes-m... https://www.svs-solicitors.co.uk/additional-notable-cases-2023/ https://www.svs-solicitors.co.uk/additional-notable-cases-20... https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/The%20King%20v%20James%20Alexander%20Smith.pdf https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/The%2...
- estearum 2mo ago
  You misunderstood the thread. Automated speed cameras are not part of a surveillance network. ANPR networks are obviously created specifically for surveillance. GP said "I remember pushback to automated speed cameras" and I said sure, but that was still very different because they weren't part of a surveillance network. Your proof that ANPRs are used for surveillance illustrates the same difference I am pointing out. Then the gap between UK's government-owned ANPRs and the privately owned Flock cameras is still probably quite large. I don't know the UK's privacy laws, but they probably exist. Flock, as a private party in the US, essentially has zero controls whatsoever on how the data is used. Including – most critically – that the government can simply buy the data from Flock (sans warrant) that would be illegal for the government to produce itself.