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To me this is strange. In the UK I'm so used to ANPR I just assumed my car is tracked wherever I go. There were a few incidents when the automatic speed cameras

To me this is strange. In the UK I'm so used to ANPR I just assumed my car is tracked wherever I go. There were a few incidents when the automatic speed cameras first came out, filling them with expanding foam so they exploded etc but even those died out after a while.

estearum 1mo ago
I could be wrong, but I don't think the UK has a network of privately owned ANPRs that can create ~complete pictures of people's comings and goings, and that data has effectively zero legal protections whatsoever. Automated speed cameras are fairly common in the US but are obviously not a surveillance network.
- lazide 1mo ago
  Not a surveillance network you know of. Knowing what we know now, why wouldn’t it be tapped, if they could get away with it?
  - estearum 1mo ago
    Well for one, there's not nearly enough of them to be valuable the way that Flock is. Two, they're pointed exclusively at roads. Three, their outputs don't show up in court cases as evidence, which itself dramatically reduces the danger (even if they potentially could maybe support parallel construction) Speed and stop cameras are very very good and should be virtually everywhere with extremely strict control on their outputs.
    - lazide 1mo ago
      I see you haven’t heard of parallel construction.
      - estearum 1mo ago
        You see that I haven't heard of the thing that I explicitly mention in the exact comment you just replied to? In any case, an evidence modality that can only be used via parallel construction is still far, far, far less risky than one that can be freely introduced in court.
        lazide 1mo ago
        Ah, I struggled to see your point of view if you didn’t, so I guess I skipped over it. Now I just struggle to understand the naïveté in general.
        estearum 1mo ago
        Such are the challenges of being someone who can't read four sentences.
      - Freedom2 1mo ago
        Is there any evidence that they haven't heard of it, or is this an assumption from your part?
    - pipmac 1mo ago
      > Three, their outputs don't show up in court cases as evidence That's not true - I was recently a juror on a UK trial where we were shown ANPR photography of the defendants' vehicles. Here's some other examples of cases in the UK where the prosecution presented the jury with ANPR evidence: https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/693b0db6b21a3a02e931ced1 https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/693b0db6b21a3a02e931ce... https://www.2hb.co.uk/news/class-a-drug-importation-trial-convictions https://www.2hb.co.uk/news/class-a-drug-importation-trial-co... https://www.2br.co.uk/sam-magee-kc-successfully-prosecutes-man-charged-with-the-murder-and-dismemberment-of-his-friend/ https://www.2br.co.uk/sam-magee-kc-successfully-prosecutes-m... https://www.svs-solicitors.co.uk/additional-notable-cases-2023/ https://www.svs-solicitors.co.uk/additional-notable-cases-20... https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/The%20King%20v%20James%20Alexander%20Smith.pdf https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/The%2...
      - estearum 1mo ago
        You misunderstood the thread. Automated speed cameras are not part of a surveillance network. ANPR networks are obviously created specifically for surveillance. GP said "I remember pushback to automated speed cameras" and I said sure, but that was still very different because they weren't part of a surveillance network. Your proof that ANPRs are used for surveillance illustrates the same difference I am pointing out. Then the gap between UK's government-owned ANPRs and the privately owned Flock cameras is still probably quite large. I don't know the UK's privacy laws, but they probably exist. Flock, as a private party in the US, essentially has zero controls whatsoever on how the data is used. Including – most critically – that the government can simply buy the data from Flock (sans warrant) that would be illegal for the government to produce itself.
- brynnbee 1mo ago
  I'm not sure I've ever noticed a single one or had a ticket from any or heard of anyone ever getting a ticket from one. They don't seem common in my experience, or maybe it's just like an east coast thing because I've never lived in that part of the US.
  - estearum 1mo ago
    Some states they're illegal, and by "common" I do not mean they have significant coverage. I mean that they're not exotic or unusual.
dghlsakjg 1mo ago
Police in the UK are held to a much higher standard, and the culture in the UK is much more tolerant of government control. I’m also going to guess that there are significant access controls on the systems in the UK that would prevent things like tracking an ex, or cops using ALPR to see if you have visited a healthcare facility that offers abortions among its other services (both real examples).
drnick1 1mo ago
Just because the UK has become a dystopian hellhole with cameras everywhere, Internet censorship, and repeated attempts are ending anonymity online, does not mean that other places should follow suit without resistance.
pwillia7 1mo ago
We have the bill of rights baby
deaux 1mo ago
Flock doesn't just sell ALPRs. They bundle it with CCTV, audio sensors, sells to private parties, analyze visual data. That's why they're everywhere. Pointed at pools, walking paths, indoors. In countries where ALPRs are widespread, they're exclusively on roads, because.. they read license plates.
EasyMark 1mo ago
well hopefully this snowballs and most public facing cameras other than private ones by people and businesses go extinct (state run cameras). We don't need to be recording every citizen's movement "just in case" . Society got along for thousands of years without it, and the potential for ever increasing tendency toward authoritarian regimes points to such surveillance as a terrible mistake in any society striving for a democracy.

estearum 1mo ago

I could be wrong, but I don't think the UK has a network of privately owned ANPRs that can create ~complete pictures of people's comings and goings, and that data has effectively zero legal protections whatsoever. Automated speed cameras are fairly common in the US but are obviously not a surveillance network.

lazide 1mo ago
Not a surveillance network you know of. Knowing what we know now, why wouldn’t it be tapped, if they could get away with it?
- estearum 1mo ago
  Well for one, there's not nearly enough of them to be valuable the way that Flock is. Two, they're pointed exclusively at roads. Three, their outputs don't show up in court cases as evidence, which itself dramatically reduces the danger (even if they potentially could maybe support parallel construction) Speed and stop cameras are very very good and should be virtually everywhere with extremely strict control on their outputs.
  - lazide 1mo ago
    I see you haven’t heard of parallel construction.
    - estearum 1mo ago
      You see that I haven't heard of the thing that I explicitly mention in the exact comment you just replied to? In any case, an evidence modality that can only be used via parallel construction is still far, far, far less risky than one that can be freely introduced in court.
      - lazide 1mo ago
        Ah, I struggled to see your point of view if you didn’t, so I guess I skipped over it. Now I just struggle to understand the naïveté in general.
        estearum 1mo ago
        Such are the challenges of being someone who can't read four sentences.
    - Freedom2 1mo ago
      Is there any evidence that they haven't heard of it, or is this an assumption from your part?
  - pipmac 1mo ago
    > Three, their outputs don't show up in court cases as evidence That's not true - I was recently a juror on a UK trial where we were shown ANPR photography of the defendants' vehicles. Here's some other examples of cases in the UK where the prosecution presented the jury with ANPR evidence: https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/693b0db6b21a3a02e931ced1 https://www.casemine.com/judgement/uk/693b0db6b21a3a02e931ce... https://www.2hb.co.uk/news/class-a-drug-importation-trial-convictions https://www.2hb.co.uk/news/class-a-drug-importation-trial-co... https://www.2br.co.uk/sam-magee-kc-successfully-prosecutes-man-charged-with-the-murder-and-dismemberment-of-his-friend/ https://www.2br.co.uk/sam-magee-kc-successfully-prosecutes-m... https://www.svs-solicitors.co.uk/additional-notable-cases-2023/ https://www.svs-solicitors.co.uk/additional-notable-cases-20... https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/The%20King%20v%20James%20Alexander%20Smith.pdf https://www.judiciaryni.uk/files/judiciaryni/decisions/The%2...
    - estearum 1mo ago
      You misunderstood the thread. Automated speed cameras are not part of a surveillance network. ANPR networks are obviously created specifically for surveillance. GP said "I remember pushback to automated speed cameras" and I said sure, but that was still very different because they weren't part of a surveillance network. Your proof that ANPRs are used for surveillance illustrates the same difference I am pointing out. Then the gap between UK's government-owned ANPRs and the privately owned Flock cameras is still probably quite large. I don't know the UK's privacy laws, but they probably exist. Flock, as a private party in the US, essentially has zero controls whatsoever on how the data is used. Including – most critically – that the government can simply buy the data from Flock (sans warrant) that would be illegal for the government to produce itself.
brynnbee 1mo ago
I'm not sure I've ever noticed a single one or had a ticket from any or heard of anyone ever getting a ticket from one. They don't seem common in my experience, or maybe it's just like an east coast thing because I've never lived in that part of the US.
- estearum 1mo ago
  Some states they're illegal, and by "common" I do not mean they have significant coverage. I mean that they're not exotic or unusual.

dghlsakjg 1mo ago

Police in the UK are held to a much higher standard, and the culture in the UK is much more tolerant of government control. I’m also going to guess that there are significant access controls on the systems in the UK that would prevent things like tracking an ex, or cops using ALPR to see if you have visited a healthcare facility that offers abortions among its other services (both real examples).

drnick1 1mo ago

Just because the UK has become a dystopian hellhole with cameras everywhere, Internet censorship, and repeated attempts are ending anonymity online, does not mean that other places should follow suit without resistance.

pwillia7 1mo ago

We have the bill of rights baby

deaux 1mo ago

Flock doesn't just sell ALPRs. They bundle it with CCTV, audio sensors, sells to private parties, analyze visual data. That's why they're everywhere. Pointed at pools, walking paths, indoors. In countries where ALPRs are widespread, they're exclusively on roads, because.. they read license plates.

EasyMark 1mo ago

well hopefully this snowballs and most public facing cameras other than private ones by people and businesses go extinct (state run cameras). We don't need to be recording every citizen's movement "just in case" . Society got along for thousands of years without it, and the potential for ever increasing tendency toward authoritarian regimes points to such surveillance as a terrible mistake in any society striving for a democracy.