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They're not destroying rare manuscripts or incunables. They're destroying one (1) copy of a mass-produced item for each AI company. Public libraries destroy m

They're not destroying rare manuscripts or incunables. They're destroying one (1) copy of a mass-produced item for each AI company. Public libraries destroy millions more yearly as a matter of routine. This is just part of a CCP-aligned moral panic, along with the water use nonsense, and similar with the soviet-aligned moral panic that destroyed the civil nuclear industry 40 years ago.

TofuLover 1mo ago
> This is just part of a CCP-aligned moral panic, along with the water use nonsense What was nonsense about water use?
- brookst 1mo ago
  It was never that dramatic, and it’s declining day by day. It’s a panic over a real but small problem. Order of magnitude more water is lost from wasted irrigation (e.g. during rain, of fallow fields, sprayed into windy air, etc) than data centers.
  - SXX 1mo ago
    Problem with data centers is that companies want to build them near densely populated areas that already have problems with water supply and high utility bills.
    - himinlomax 1mo ago
      1. They don't HAVE to use water. Air cooling, closed loop cooling, waste-water cooling, and so on, are options. Easy to regulate. Evaporative cooling is more energy efficient though, but a complete non-issue in places with abundant water and a non-option elsewhere. 2. Datacenters have been shown to reduce utility prices. They provide suppliers with previsible long term demand which allows for cost-effective network and production planning.
- alex43578 1mo ago
  The outcry over data centers using a fraction of the water used for things like golf courses or growing alfalfa in a desert.
- diseasedyak 1mo ago
  That AI data centers are drinking up local ground water for cooling. It isn't (or wasn't) nonsense, though. It was/is a real thing, though it seems to be on the out in favor of closed loop cooling after the massive and still on-going public outcry.
- DaSHacka 1mo ago
  That AI consumes it at an abnormally high rate, presumably. The claim never made sense to me either, I can only assume those that regurgitated such claims never worked with HPC or even general datacenters before. Was recently talking to a (non-technical) friend about this, she was surprised after talking about the "insane water use for AI datacenters" when I responded that open-loop cooling is pretty rare for a datacenter and I've never actually seen it used before, versus closed-loop (or just regular air-based cooling) which has no real noticable water consumption.
fc417fc802 1mo ago
I was with you until the water use. You're misinformed. There were at one point at least several data centers set to use evaporative cooling on well water. Notably since all the controversy many data centers are very loud about being closed loop and with significant consideration given to other local impacts as well.
- SXX 1mo ago
  Yep. I was personally misinformed the same way at some point. Never expected evaporative cooling to be so popular, but it is.
- himinlomax 1mo ago
  It's possible for a datacenter to use scarce well water irresponsibly. They don't have to, and the vast majority don't. The lie and moral panic is that all datacenters necessarily waste precious drinking water; it's patently false and used by agitators to push, unwittingly or not, a Chinese Communist Party agenda.
  - 8note 1mo ago
    > a Chinese Communist Party agenda is it actually? it feels more like US propaganda that we have to let our oligarchs run roughshod over us because of what we imagine the big bad CCP might want. i dont think the CCP cares whether there's data centers in rural america. Regulation that requires closed loop cooling seems simple enough, same with lots of the other problems people have with data centers: * sound and infrasound under x DB * no air quality change * must pay to build out electrical infrastructure etc its not to the CCPs benefit or loss to make sure the data centers are built well if they get built
    - himinlomax 1mo ago
      > i dont think the CCP cares whether there's data centers in rural america. They certainly care that the US loses the race for AI.
pfdietz 1mo ago
Nuclear killed itself (vast cost overruns); there was no need for hallucinated foreign influences. But I understand blaming your energy waifu for its own failure is unacceptable for nuclear bros.
- 8note 1mo ago
  nuclear was killed by russian nat gas money. running nuclear plants were shut down while running just fine
  - pfdietz 1mo ago
    Nuclear in the US was killed by Russian natural gas money? What other nonsense do you believe?
    - himinlomax 1mo ago
      It demonstrably was in Germany. Look up Greenpeace Energy, and what cushy corporate job Schroder got after leaving office.
      - pfdietz 1mo ago
        Also, you said "40 year ago". But that was well before nuclear was shut down in Germany. Lying is difficult since you don't have reality to keep your story straight.
toephu2 1mo ago
> This is just part of a CCP-aligned moral panic I've heard people say this, but I haven't seen any evidence for it. Do you have any evidence?
- himinlomax 1mo ago
  I didn't claim it was orchestrated by them, it may or may not be, but it is evidently aligned with their interests. Exactly the same as shutting down perfectly fine German nuclear plants was aligned with Russian interests.

TofuLover 1mo ago

> This is just part of a CCP-aligned moral panic, along with the water use nonsense What was nonsense about water use?

brookst 1mo ago
It was never that dramatic, and it’s declining day by day. It’s a panic over a real but small problem. Order of magnitude more water is lost from wasted irrigation (e.g. during rain, of fallow fields, sprayed into windy air, etc) than data centers.
- SXX 1mo ago
  Problem with data centers is that companies want to build them near densely populated areas that already have problems with water supply and high utility bills.
  - himinlomax 1mo ago
    1. They don't HAVE to use water. Air cooling, closed loop cooling, waste-water cooling, and so on, are options. Easy to regulate. Evaporative cooling is more energy efficient though, but a complete non-issue in places with abundant water and a non-option elsewhere. 2. Datacenters have been shown to reduce utility prices. They provide suppliers with previsible long term demand which allows for cost-effective network and production planning.
alex43578 1mo ago
The outcry over data centers using a fraction of the water used for things like golf courses or growing alfalfa in a desert.
diseasedyak 1mo ago
That AI data centers are drinking up local ground water for cooling. It isn't (or wasn't) nonsense, though. It was/is a real thing, though it seems to be on the out in favor of closed loop cooling after the massive and still on-going public outcry.
DaSHacka 1mo ago
That AI consumes it at an abnormally high rate, presumably. The claim never made sense to me either, I can only assume those that regurgitated such claims never worked with HPC or even general datacenters before. Was recently talking to a (non-technical) friend about this, she was surprised after talking about the "insane water use for AI datacenters" when I responded that open-loop cooling is pretty rare for a datacenter and I've never actually seen it used before, versus closed-loop (or just regular air-based cooling) which has no real noticable water consumption.

fc417fc802 1mo ago

I was with you until the water use. You're misinformed. There were at one point at least several data centers set to use evaporative cooling on well water. Notably since all the controversy many data centers are very loud about being closed loop and with significant consideration given to other local impacts as well.

SXX 1mo ago
Yep. I was personally misinformed the same way at some point. Never expected evaporative cooling to be so popular, but it is.
himinlomax 1mo ago
It's possible for a datacenter to use scarce well water irresponsibly. They don't have to, and the vast majority don't. The lie and moral panic is that all datacenters necessarily waste precious drinking water; it's patently false and used by agitators to push, unwittingly or not, a Chinese Communist Party agenda.
- 8note 1mo ago
  > a Chinese Communist Party agenda is it actually? it feels more like US propaganda that we have to let our oligarchs run roughshod over us because of what we imagine the big bad CCP might want. i dont think the CCP cares whether there's data centers in rural america. Regulation that requires closed loop cooling seems simple enough, same with lots of the other problems people have with data centers: * sound and infrasound under x DB * no air quality change * must pay to build out electrical infrastructure etc its not to the CCPs benefit or loss to make sure the data centers are built well if they get built
  - himinlomax 1mo ago
    > i dont think the CCP cares whether there's data centers in rural america. They certainly care that the US loses the race for AI.

pfdietz 1mo ago

Nuclear killed itself (vast cost overruns); there was no need for hallucinated foreign influences. But I understand blaming your energy waifu for its own failure is unacceptable for nuclear bros.

8note 1mo ago
nuclear was killed by russian nat gas money. running nuclear plants were shut down while running just fine
- pfdietz 1mo ago
  Nuclear in the US was killed by Russian natural gas money? What other nonsense do you believe?
  - himinlomax 1mo ago
    It demonstrably was in Germany. Look up Greenpeace Energy, and what cushy corporate job Schroder got after leaving office.
    - pfdietz 1mo ago
      Also, you said "40 year ago". But that was well before nuclear was shut down in Germany. Lying is difficult since you don't have reality to keep your story straight.

toephu2 1mo ago

> This is just part of a CCP-aligned moral panic I've heard people say this, but I haven't seen any evidence for it. Do you have any evidence?

himinlomax 1mo ago
I didn't claim it was orchestrated by them, it may or may not be, but it is evidently aligned with their interests. Exactly the same as shutting down perfectly fine German nuclear plants was aligned with Russian interests.