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I'm advocating for a litmus test that can't be easily abused, and I'm advocating against unfair equivalences. I also am not calling "overall a benefit to humani

I'm advocating for a litmus test that can't be easily abused, and I'm advocating against unfair equivalences. I also am not calling "overall a benefit to humanity" a metric, it's more of a conclusion we could arrive at by an application of relevant metrics.

Retric 1mo ago
> a conclusion we could arrive at by an application of relevant metrics. That’s dangerous ground because of how you can arbitrarily change weights of different metrics. If the goal is the “overall benefit of humanity” then that’s what’s important not metrics.
- infinite_spin 1mo ago
  How do you propose assessing "overall benefit of humanity" without metrics?
  - Retric 1mo ago
    Qualitative assessment etc not just metrics. How do you propose to asses “overall benefit to humanity” with metrics?
    - infinite_spin 1mo ago
      Number of successful outcomes reported (e.g. with disabled students, cancer patients). Labor costs. Latency of services. Scientific discoveries found. Etc. I'm not trying to discount the qualitative approach, but I think it's not impossibly hard to find metrics we can associate with "overall benefit to humanity" from a quantitative viewpoint.
      - SiempreViernes 1mo ago
        > I think it's not impossibly hard to find metrics we can associate with "overall benefit to humanity" from a quantitative viewpoint. One would hope for the slightly higher ambition of metrics that are causally connected to "overall benefit of humanity", settling for merely correlated has that unpleasant risk of the association breaking as you try to optimise.
    - ang_cire 1mo ago
      Qualitative metrics are also metrics. You have to have a spectrum in order to weigh things against each other qualitatively, even if the spectrum is just a 2-point binary.
      - Retric 1mo ago
        Qualitative assessment and qualitative metrics are different things.
        ang_cire 1mo ago
        Qualitative assessment is the overall process of using qualitative metrics to evaluate something.
        infinite_spin 1mo ago
        I feel like both viewpoints are valid ways of determining what you personally view as "good", and I don't want to take away from that diversity of opinion
        Retric 1mo ago
        The important distinction is it covers a wider range of analysis than qualitative metrics alone. This matters due to the difference between a hypothetical perfect analysis covering every possibility and one than can actually take place in the real world.

Retric 1mo ago

> a conclusion we could arrive at by an application of relevant metrics. That’s dangerous ground because of how you can arbitrarily change weights of different metrics. If the goal is the “overall benefit of humanity” then that’s what’s important not metrics.

infinite_spin 1mo ago
How do you propose assessing "overall benefit of humanity" without metrics?
- Retric 1mo ago
  Qualitative assessment etc not just metrics. How do you propose to asses “overall benefit to humanity” with metrics?
  - infinite_spin 1mo ago
    Number of successful outcomes reported (e.g. with disabled students, cancer patients). Labor costs. Latency of services. Scientific discoveries found. Etc. I'm not trying to discount the qualitative approach, but I think it's not impossibly hard to find metrics we can associate with "overall benefit to humanity" from a quantitative viewpoint.
    - SiempreViernes 1mo ago
      > I think it's not impossibly hard to find metrics we can associate with "overall benefit to humanity" from a quantitative viewpoint. One would hope for the slightly higher ambition of metrics that are causally connected to "overall benefit of humanity", settling for merely correlated has that unpleasant risk of the association breaking as you try to optimise.
  - ang_cire 1mo ago
    Qualitative metrics are also metrics. You have to have a spectrum in order to weigh things against each other qualitatively, even if the spectrum is just a 2-point binary.
    - Retric 1mo ago
      Qualitative assessment and qualitative metrics are different things.
      - ang_cire 1mo ago
        Qualitative assessment is the overall process of using qualitative metrics to evaluate something.
        infinite_spin 1mo ago
        I feel like both viewpoints are valid ways of determining what you personally view as "good", and I don't want to take away from that diversity of opinion
        Retric 1mo ago
        The important distinction is it covers a wider range of analysis than qualitative metrics alone. This matters due to the difference between a hypothetical perfect analysis covering every possibility and one than can actually take place in the real world.