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More than that, we need capability-based languages. No capability passed to it, no permission.

kibwen 2mo ago
First we need capability-based OSes, like we should have had decades ago if worse-is-better hadn't stuck us with Unix. I don't need to care whether or not a program was written in a capability-aware language if the OS fundamentally takes care of that for me.
- ptx 2mo ago
  FreeBSD does this with Capsicum: https://wiki.freebsd.org/Capsicum https://wiki.freebsd.org/Capsicum
- grommz 2mo ago
  HarmonyOS is a capability based OS. I don't know why anyone in China is still using Rust. The biggest social engineering hack was for the Rust team to convince developers that it is a safe language.
  - pjmlp 2mo ago
    Actually HarmonyOS NEXT is getting its language as well, Cangjie. https://cangjie-lang.cn/en https://cangjie-lang.cn/en https://cangjie-lang.cn/en/docs?url=%2F1.0.0%2Fuser_manual%2Fsource_en%2Ffirst_understanding%2Fbasic.html https://cangjie-lang.cn/en/docs?url=%2F1.0.0%2Fuser_manual%2...
- burnt-resistor 2mo ago
  1. seL4 exists. I haven't seen much more formal and rigorous than it. Efforts have ported the Linux kernel and RTOS-things to it. 2. Add syscall(s) to POSIX, which encourages *nix adoption, with an API like the following: - Drop capabilities for thread/process except allow list. - Test if current thread/process has all listed capabilities. - List should be able to represent capabilities and their attributes, much like a single unveil() OpenBSD call, maybe as an array of/pointer to struct. - (Program crashes if syscall capability is missing.)
mike_hearn 2mo ago
Why not object capability languages: https://blog.plan99.net/why-not-capability-languages-a8e6cbdf9682 https://blog.plan99.net/why-not-capability-languages-a8e6cbd...
- burnt-resistor 2mo ago
  No. Object-oriented brings things many languages cannot use. Also, that was a tl;dr fluff blog with barely any examples.
  - mike_hearn 2mo ago
    All languages in mainstream use are imperative and at least somewhat object oriented, other than SQL. But many of those don't have what it takes to implement capabilities (too flexible/dynamic).
    - burnt-resistor 2mo ago
      No, this is false and you're using weasel words and creating a strawman. I said add functions or capabilities to make it happen. You don't read.

First we need capability-based OSes, like we should have had decades ago if worse-is-better hadn't stuck us with Unix. I don't need to care whether or not a program was written in a capability-aware language if the OS fundamentally takes care of that for me.

ptx 2mo ago
FreeBSD does this with Capsicum: https://wiki.freebsd.org/Capsicum https://wiki.freebsd.org/Capsicum
grommz 2mo ago
HarmonyOS is a capability based OS. I don't know why anyone in China is still using Rust. The biggest social engineering hack was for the Rust team to convince developers that it is a safe language.
- pjmlp 2mo ago
  Actually HarmonyOS NEXT is getting its language as well, Cangjie. https://cangjie-lang.cn/en https://cangjie-lang.cn/en https://cangjie-lang.cn/en/docs?url=%2F1.0.0%2Fuser_manual%2Fsource_en%2Ffirst_understanding%2Fbasic.html https://cangjie-lang.cn/en/docs?url=%2F1.0.0%2Fuser_manual%2...
burnt-resistor 2mo ago
1. seL4 exists. I haven't seen much more formal and rigorous than it. Efforts have ported the Linux kernel and RTOS-things to it. 2. Add syscall(s) to POSIX, which encourages *nix adoption, with an API like the following: - Drop capabilities for thread/process except allow list. - Test if current thread/process has all listed capabilities. - List should be able to represent capabilities and their attributes, much like a single unveil() OpenBSD call, maybe as an array of/pointer to struct. - (Program crashes if syscall capability is missing.)

mike_hearn 2mo ago

Why not object capability languages: https://blog.plan99.net/why-not-capability-languages-a8e6cbdf9682 https://blog.plan99.net/why-not-capability-languages-a8e6cbd...

burnt-resistor 2mo ago
No. Object-oriented brings things many languages cannot use. Also, that was a tl;dr fluff blog with barely any examples.
- mike_hearn 2mo ago
  All languages in mainstream use are imperative and at least somewhat object oriented, other than SQL. But many of those don't have what it takes to implement capabilities (too flexible/dynamic).
  - burnt-resistor 2mo ago
    No, this is false and you're using weasel words and creating a strawman. I said add functions or capabilities to make it happen. You don't read.