6 ms·

>If you don't like services that require your full name, don't use them Except Facebook has a monopoly, minors are using it, and so on. Face it, in Europe we h

>If you don't like services that require your full name, don't use them Except Facebook has a monopoly, minors are using it, and so on. Face it, in Europe we have a different understanding of the role of the State and if you want to do business in here, you'll have to abide by our rules.

mseebach 14y ago
> Except Facebook has a monopoly No they don't, especially not in Germany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StudiVZ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StudiVZ
- trin_ 14y ago
  they do. studivz plays ther same role os/2 and or anything else played in the microsoft monopoly era. they are at this point a niche site that is almost dead.
- rimantas 14y ago
  And how about Russia with vkontakte (vk.com)?
- darklajid 14y ago
  Really? Seriously? "StudiVZ" was a lame (and, if I remember correctly, bit-by-bit when they started) clone of FB, which won here for a while. Probably because they actually had a local interface and added local universities, schools and whatnot. Since then FB expanded to Germany, StudiVZ is for all purposes dead and obsolete. I don't even know how you come up with that example. It's like pointing to Myspace or whatever came before that.
  - mseebach 14y ago
    Both StudiVZ and MySpace are examples of how Facebook isn't a monopoly. So is Twitter and e-mail and Google Plus. And PHPBB and Diaspora. Facebook has a monopoly on being Facebook. For everything else, there's ample competition. The fact that Facebook is more popular than the competition doesn't make it a monopoly.
    - darklajid 14y ago
      I had the same argument over here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4938204 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4938204 Would you consider Windows as a monopoly? There are alternatives.. If your answer is 'No', the EU seems to disagree with you (and might on the FB case, we'll see). If your answer is 'Yes', where's the difference?
      - mseebach 14y ago
        Windows is more of a monopoly in the sense that there is much heavier lock-in: It's not trivial to write an application in such a way that it works equally well under Windows and the alternatives. The lock-in to Facebook is much, much lighter. But more importantly, being a monopoly (however such is defined) is not in itself illegal, and it's not a carte blanche for publicity-hungry politicians to hand-wavily demand to control random details of a company's operations. What is illegal is monopolistic behaviour, to leverage your dominance in one market to unfairly gain an advantage in another. That is what Microsoft did and was punished for (rather than merely being a monopoly), and what Google might be getting in trouble for.
        adimitrov 14y ago
        > The lock-in to Facebook is much, much lighter. WHAT? Pardon, but I don't see at all how you could come to such a conclusion. The primary assets of Windows are: ease-of-use, ubiquity, hardware compatibility. But if you have an application you love that works on Windows, chances are (if it's not a game, but even then there are other games and entertainment software) that there is a port or clone for another system (like Linux or Mac OS X — I'm speaking consumer-grade stuff here, business is another matter entirely.) Facebook on the other hand has these assets: your Mom's on Facebook, your dad's on Facebook, so is your neighbour, your aunt, all your friends, (ex-)class mates, acquaintances, that boy or girl you had a crush on in first grade… Your social graph is much more difficult to migrate to a different social platform than it is to port an application from one OS to another (or to find it on the Net.) Because it is pretty much impossible. Mass-migrations sort-of happen (like StudiVZ → Facebook a while back in Germany, or Digg → reddit, but there the social cohesion was rather low,) but only in high pressure situations. You can't easily bring about such a situation without the point of origin of said migration fucking up in a major way. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr — they're all sitting on social gold, and they're keeping it for now.
marknutter 14y ago
Your definition of a monopoly in Europe must be very different than ours.
- belorn 14y ago
  Monopoly is reached, when there is a lack of economic competition to produce the good or service and a lack of viable substitute goods. If the service facebook provides is access and contact between people, any substitute (ie, proof that there is no monopoly) would have to be near the size of facebook to qualify. How many other viable substitutes are there that reach 30% of the population? Any at 20%, 10%, 5%, 1%? face it, facebook has a monopoly right now in regard to a service proving access and contact between people.
  - marknutter 14y ago
    uh.. skype? twitter? reddit? aim? gmail? google plus?
    - darklajid 14y ago
      You're ignoring the root cause of this discussions. Which service that you're listing has a 'real name' policy? Skype: Pseudonym (this one) Twitter: Pseudonym (the same) Reddit: Pseudonym (the same) AIM: Uhm.. Nope. Guess allows pseudonyms? Not sure GMail: No restrictions either G+: Same as FB, hopefully the next target on the list of this group. So - most of your list aren't playing that 'give us your real name and be prepared to hand over your ID to prove that fact' game with their users. Which is what the discussion is about. Of the services that do this, FB clearly is the leader. Or in a monopoly-esque situation.
      - marknutter 14y ago
        You're shifting the issue. We're not debating which large service is requiring real names (btw, G+ has the same requirement), we're debating whether or not Facebook is a monopoly. By your logic, I could make the argument for any service being a monopoly by being specific about the type of service they are supposedly monopolizing. For instance, Twitter has a monopoly on microblogging services that use birds in their marketing.
oleganza 14y ago
If you dig into definition of monopoly, you'll be surprised that everybody has a monopoly on themselves. Important thing is that Facebook does not have monopoly on you, but your government does. If monopoly is evil, then deal with your government first. If it is not, then why worry about Facebook?
- weavejester 14y ago
  It might have escaped your notice, but a lot of people over the past few thousand years have worried about the power of governments, and a lot of effort has been expended in trying to limit this power through laws. Any time you have an uneven distribution of power, be it a government or a corporate monopoly, you need to have some safeguards in place to ensure that power is not abused.
- chmod775 14y ago
  I deal with my government every time I vote. Plus the comparison is wrong IMHO. Governmental power is a resource over which a party can have a monopoly. But currently no party has. I admit that I fail to see the point of your post. Might be just me.
  - RickHull 14y ago
    The state has monopoly on the use of violence, among other things. Just because leadership may change does not alter this fact. Would you deny the fact of a corporate monopoly simply because their leadership may change?
  - chmod775 14y ago
    @RickHull Please don't confuse a state with its government. Ignoring the military, only 1 of the 3 separated powers is allowed to use violence. That aside. There's a huge difference between a company and a government. Because I only get to decide on the politics of the latter. But luckily my government has jurisdiction over companies operating in the country in question, giving me also some power over them. So. To make this clear: A government having control over people without the people having control over it: A potential problem. A company having a monopoly and therefore control over people without the people having control over it: A potential problem. Luckily the people get to control the first, which in turn has control over the latter.
fauigerzigerk 14y ago
There is no consensus in Europe that the role of government includes protecting us against our own deliberate choices. Particularly not against choices that we can reverse any time we want. And the law we're talking about is not a European law. It's a German law. I'm glad we do have a European law that mandates websites to delete personal data at the request of users. That gives us the freedom to leave if we no longer agree with the rules a website makes. I actually deleted my Facebook account partly because they asked "friends" to report "friends" who didn't use their real name. I also don't like to be mislead and spied upon in the most egregious ways possible. Facebook is only a monopoly if all my friends decide to enforce it by keeping me out of the loop if I'm not on Facebook. Real friends don't do that.
- rmc 14y ago
  I'm glad we do have a European law that mandates websites to delete personal data at the request of users. No, that law hasn't come in yet. It's planned to come in. Current EU data protection law requires that companies delete/correct data that's incorrect, and they can only store information if it's proportionate to what they're doing, and if you've consented at the start. But as ar as I know, EU law/directives does not allow you (yet!) to be "forgotten".
  - summerdown2 14y ago
    Principle 5 of the UK Data Protection Act says: http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/the_principles.aspx http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_... Personal data processed for any purpose or purposes shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for that purpose or those purposes. http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/information_standards/principle_5.aspx http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_... It's not the same as a right to be forgotten, but it does say companies need to think about (and presumably be prepared to argue in court) their need for data. > In some cases, you may need to keep personal data so you can defend possible future legal claims. However, you could still delete information that could not possibly be relevant to such a claim. Unless there is some other reason for keeping it, personal data should be deleted when such a claim could no longer arise.
rmc 14y ago
I don't think monopoly or not status matters to data protection law, which this might fall under. Sure, the USA (say) with anti-monopoly law but no data protection law, this might be an important point, but in EU we have monopoly law and data protection law.

mseebach 14y ago

> Except Facebook has a monopoly No they don't, especially not in Germany. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StudiVZ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/StudiVZ

trin_ 14y ago
they do. studivz plays ther same role os/2 and or anything else played in the microsoft monopoly era. they are at this point a niche site that is almost dead.
rimantas 14y ago
And how about Russia with vkontakte (vk.com)?
darklajid 14y ago
Really? Seriously? "StudiVZ" was a lame (and, if I remember correctly, bit-by-bit when they started) clone of FB, which won here for a while. Probably because they actually had a local interface and added local universities, schools and whatnot. Since then FB expanded to Germany, StudiVZ is for all purposes dead and obsolete. I don't even know how you come up with that example. It's like pointing to Myspace or whatever came before that.
- mseebach 14y ago
  Both StudiVZ and MySpace are examples of how Facebook isn't a monopoly. So is Twitter and e-mail and Google Plus. And PHPBB and Diaspora. Facebook has a monopoly on being Facebook. For everything else, there's ample competition. The fact that Facebook is more popular than the competition doesn't make it a monopoly.
  - darklajid 14y ago
    I had the same argument over here: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4938204 http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4938204 Would you consider Windows as a monopoly? There are alternatives.. If your answer is 'No', the EU seems to disagree with you (and might on the FB case, we'll see). If your answer is 'Yes', where's the difference?
    - mseebach 14y ago
      Windows is more of a monopoly in the sense that there is much heavier lock-in: It's not trivial to write an application in such a way that it works equally well under Windows and the alternatives. The lock-in to Facebook is much, much lighter. But more importantly, being a monopoly (however such is defined) is not in itself illegal, and it's not a carte blanche for publicity-hungry politicians to hand-wavily demand to control random details of a company's operations. What is illegal is monopolistic behaviour, to leverage your dominance in one market to unfairly gain an advantage in another. That is what Microsoft did and was punished for (rather than merely being a monopoly), and what Google might be getting in trouble for.
      - adimitrov 14y ago
        > The lock-in to Facebook is much, much lighter. WHAT? Pardon, but I don't see at all how you could come to such a conclusion. The primary assets of Windows are: ease-of-use, ubiquity, hardware compatibility. But if you have an application you love that works on Windows, chances are (if it's not a game, but even then there are other games and entertainment software) that there is a port or clone for another system (like Linux or Mac OS X — I'm speaking consumer-grade stuff here, business is another matter entirely.) Facebook on the other hand has these assets: your Mom's on Facebook, your dad's on Facebook, so is your neighbour, your aunt, all your friends, (ex-)class mates, acquaintances, that boy or girl you had a crush on in first grade… Your social graph is much more difficult to migrate to a different social platform than it is to port an application from one OS to another (or to find it on the Net.) Because it is pretty much impossible. Mass-migrations sort-of happen (like StudiVZ → Facebook a while back in Germany, or Digg → reddit, but there the social cohesion was rather low,) but only in high pressure situations. You can't easily bring about such a situation without the point of origin of said migration fucking up in a major way. Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, Tumblr — they're all sitting on social gold, and they're keeping it for now.

marknutter 14y ago

Your definition of a monopoly in Europe must be very different than ours.

belorn 14y ago
Monopoly is reached, when there is a lack of economic competition to produce the good or service and a lack of viable substitute goods. If the service facebook provides is access and contact between people, any substitute (ie, proof that there is no monopoly) would have to be near the size of facebook to qualify. How many other viable substitutes are there that reach 30% of the population? Any at 20%, 10%, 5%, 1%? face it, facebook has a monopoly right now in regard to a service proving access and contact between people.
- marknutter 14y ago
  uh.. skype? twitter? reddit? aim? gmail? google plus?
  - darklajid 14y ago
    You're ignoring the root cause of this discussions. Which service that you're listing has a 'real name' policy? Skype: Pseudonym (this one) Twitter: Pseudonym (the same) Reddit: Pseudonym (the same) AIM: Uhm.. Nope. Guess allows pseudonyms? Not sure GMail: No restrictions either G+: Same as FB, hopefully the next target on the list of this group. So - most of your list aren't playing that 'give us your real name and be prepared to hand over your ID to prove that fact' game with their users. Which is what the discussion is about. Of the services that do this, FB clearly is the leader. Or in a monopoly-esque situation.
    - marknutter 14y ago
      You're shifting the issue. We're not debating which large service is requiring real names (btw, G+ has the same requirement), we're debating whether or not Facebook is a monopoly. By your logic, I could make the argument for any service being a monopoly by being specific about the type of service they are supposedly monopolizing. For instance, Twitter has a monopoly on microblogging services that use birds in their marketing.

oleganza 14y ago

If you dig into definition of monopoly, you'll be surprised that everybody has a monopoly on themselves. Important thing is that Facebook does not have monopoly on you, but your government does. If monopoly is evil, then deal with your government first. If it is not, then why worry about Facebook?

weavejester 14y ago
It might have escaped your notice, but a lot of people over the past few thousand years have worried about the power of governments, and a lot of effort has been expended in trying to limit this power through laws. Any time you have an uneven distribution of power, be it a government or a corporate monopoly, you need to have some safeguards in place to ensure that power is not abused.
chmod775 14y ago
I deal with my government every time I vote. Plus the comparison is wrong IMHO. Governmental power is a resource over which a party can have a monopoly. But currently no party has. I admit that I fail to see the point of your post. Might be just me.
- RickHull 14y ago
  The state has monopoly on the use of violence, among other things. Just because leadership may change does not alter this fact. Would you deny the fact of a corporate monopoly simply because their leadership may change?
- chmod775 14y ago
  @RickHull Please don't confuse a state with its government. Ignoring the military, only 1 of the 3 separated powers is allowed to use violence. That aside. There's a huge difference between a company and a government. Because I only get to decide on the politics of the latter. But luckily my government has jurisdiction over companies operating in the country in question, giving me also some power over them. So. To make this clear: A government having control over people without the people having control over it: A potential problem. A company having a monopoly and therefore control over people without the people having control over it: A potential problem. Luckily the people get to control the first, which in turn has control over the latter.

fauigerzigerk 14y ago

There is no consensus in Europe that the role of government includes protecting us against our own deliberate choices. Particularly not against choices that we can reverse any time we want. And the law we're talking about is not a European law. It's a German law. I'm glad we do have a European law that mandates websites to delete personal data at the request of users. That gives us the freedom to leave if we no longer agree with the rules a website makes. I actually deleted my Facebook account partly because they asked "friends" to report "friends" who didn't use their real name. I also don't like to be mislead and spied upon in the most egregious ways possible. Facebook is only a monopoly if all my friends decide to enforce it by keeping me out of the loop if I'm not on Facebook. Real friends don't do that.

rmc 14y ago
I'm glad we do have a European law that mandates websites to delete personal data at the request of users. No, that law hasn't come in yet. It's planned to come in. Current EU data protection law requires that companies delete/correct data that's incorrect, and they can only store information if it's proportionate to what they're doing, and if you've consented at the start. But as ar as I know, EU law/directives does not allow you (yet!) to be "forgotten".
- summerdown2 14y ago
  Principle 5 of the UK Data Protection Act says: http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/the_principles.aspx http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_... Personal data processed for any purpose or purposes shall not be kept for longer than is necessary for that purpose or those purposes. http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_guide/information_standards/principle_5.aspx http://www.ico.gov.uk/for_organisations/data_protection/the_... It's not the same as a right to be forgotten, but it does say companies need to think about (and presumably be prepared to argue in court) their need for data. > In some cases, you may need to keep personal data so you can defend possible future legal claims. However, you could still delete information that could not possibly be relevant to such a claim. Unless there is some other reason for keeping it, personal data should be deleted when such a claim could no longer arise.

rmc 14y ago

I don't think monopoly or not status matters to data protection law, which this might fall under. Sure, the USA (say) with anti-monopoly law but no data protection law, this might be an important point, but in EU we have monopoly law and data protection law.