5 ms·

> Back in the day I learned the hard way that sending a long reply to an email just ensures the other side won't read it. You can't assume that you dealt with t

by mhaberl 1mo ago

> Back in the day I learned the hard way that sending a long reply to an email just ensures the other side won't read it. You can't assume that you dealt with their request effectively that way Then I guess you didn't deal with much of the empty-headed-managment type much. I learned a different lesson: Write a long email that took time to reason and write, precise and complete text. You get a short reply that is a reply on a 1 sentence you wrote, twisted upside down ignoring completly the point that you had. -- > never reply instantly to low priority requests This is true 100% I would even say: "Never reply on anything instantly that is not an absolute emergency, ever"

john_strinlai 1mo ago
>This is true 100% I would even say: "Never reply on anything instantly that is not an absolute emergency, ever" you can shorten this to "never reply instantly", because an "absolute emergency" will never be communicated by email.
- pixl97 1mo ago
  When someones only contact with you is email, then that's how you'll get news of the emergency.
  - john_strinlai 1mo ago
    i can't think of a situation where both the following are true: 1) someone having an emergency needs to contact me specifically. 2) that someone only has my email, and no other possible way of contacting me (or someone else that can contact me).
- andy99 1mo ago
  What is the problem with replying instantly? If you can give a reply immediately why wouldn’t you? If it’s low priority work that takes time, sure, but a typical yes/no, I’m available at 5, whatever, why not just send it? If you’ve already read the email it’s less efficient to come back to it later
  - john_strinlai 1mo ago
    i'm not a strict adherent to the rule, your question would be better aimed at jillesvangurp or mhaberl. mainly i just wanted to stress that nothing in an email inbox is an "absolute emergency".
  - throwaway98797 1mo ago
    it encourages back and forth. it trains people to expect things. boundaries.
- catlifeonmars 1mo ago
  Also, email delivery in general can be delayed for hours. It’s not common, but there are no delivery guarantees around email. You could reply immediately, and it could arrive in their inbox much later.
  - prepend 1mo ago
    This doesn’t happen enough to me that I consider it.
    - catlifeonmars 1mo ago
      I once built an IdP that vended access one time codes via email. We had to switch to other means because there were a small (but significantly high) fraction of customers who didn’t receive their OTPs before they expired (TTL was 15 minutes). Also even if they came in before the TTL, a user experience that involved waiting that long to get logged in was not tenable.
- swat535 1mo ago
  I take that a step further, "absolute emergency" is rarely an "emergency". Based on my experience, it mostly translates to whatever task the person thinks it's important for them. Sometimes people will mark the task as "urgent" just to dump it on someone else. The other thing is, in critical emergencies, you should work slower than usual. This means muting all notifications and taking your time. Rushing to get things done can exacerbate the issue. Best engineering managers shield the team in those situation and simply reply with: "thanks, we've been notified and investigating".
chrisweekly 1mo ago
> "Write a long email that took time to reason and write, precise and complete text." Respectful hard disagree. Emails should be limited to five sentences. "I didn't have time to make a shorter reply" as an apology / disclaimer for rare exceptions. In virtually every case, anything longer belongs somewhere better than email (Slack, wiki / knowledgebase, docs site) or merits a realtime conversation. My PoV is shaped by over 20 years in the industry working at startups, SMBs and huge enterprises.
- conductr 1mo ago
  Hard disagree back. Email has multiple contexts when I would say that short form is ideal and should be the default but at times a thoroughly long form email is needed. Or, honestly, you just need to create a document at this point. It could be a slide deck or word/markdown/excel/etc (depends on context) and this should be in the email. But email is key. My experience is that people search subject lines, conversations, dates, and generally traverse historical conversations much better in email than in chat or a fully external application. They won’t search Slack, or try but can’t find the conversation. They won’t remember it’s on a wiki, you’ll constantly be redirecting them to the url. If the file is attached to an email, sometimes they’ll resurface it from a year+ ago. I find that’s way more common than someone referring to a chat from even a month ago. Chats are semi ephemeral. I’ve used both Teams and Slack and feel neither has really changed the game in terms of how the entire user base of an org use the system, enabling the historical reference points and moving it out of a ephemeral state, so email remains a stalwart for archival purposes and helps provide maximum context after the fact (people tend to elaborate on their choices more when writing an email).
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
  - prepend 1mo ago
    I’ve found that a two-prong approach works best. Detail in the email, expect people to read it or fail. And include a reference to a wiki or some more detailed version that can be collaborated on and extended. So the email isn’t the primary source, the wiki is (really some markdown in git). But the email is the thing that people organize and find over time.
jillesvangurp 1mo ago
> Then I guess you didn't deal with much of the empty-headed-managment type much. I worked in a big multinational at the time ;-). So, yes. Mostly my direct managers were alright. Some were excellent even. But organizational politics and learning to read between the lines is part of working inside of big organizations. > You get a short reply that is a reply on a 1 sentence you wrote, twisted upside down ignoring completly the point that you had. Usually a clear sign that you are not communicating effectively. If it's important to you, you might want to figure out how to fix it. Talking is usually a good way.
- the_af 1mo ago
  > Usually a clear sign that you are not communicating effectively Agreed. I learned that in emails, a multi-paragraph, multi-item text means the recipient will randomly reply to only one of the points (often the least important one). So an effective email will make a single point, in as brief a manner as possible.
  - andrewflnr 1mo ago
    This defines "communicating effectively" in a way that it can't possibly cover a complex topic. Sometimes you need to communicate complex topics, so this definition is a failure. The problem remains that people refuse to do the reading required for their job.
    - the_af 1mo ago
      > This defines "communicating effectively" in a way that it can't possibly cover a complex topic [...] so this definition is a failure. Indeed, I don't think email can be reliably used to convey complex topics. > The problem remains that people refuse to do the reading required for their job. Communicating effectively means accepting common flaws of people who are unlikely to change, and delivering your message in the most effective way. Whether people are right or wrong or should be fired (as another comment says) is not truly relevant. I often fail, by the way. I'm not saying I have this all figured out.
thesuitonym 1mo ago
If it's an emergency, you should call 911, or your country's equivalent. If that is not appropriate, then it's not an emergency.
- majewsky 1mo ago
  > Hello 911, our auth service is down following a malformed config deployment. "Emergency" is not the same as "emergency services".
  - john_strinlai 1mo ago
    as i've gotten older, i've realized that an auth service being down does not fit my definition of emergency. which is the point the parent commenter was making, if im not mistaken.
  - thesuitonym 1mo ago
    You're making my point exactly. Auth service being down is not an emergency.
sixtyj 1mo ago
Mail is async by nature. Read them 2-3 times a day only (you don’t check mailbox 100 times a day :) and you get things done… I prefer to reply to an e-mail immediately. Or never. If so than archive it or delete it. If you don’t answer immediately, you carry it as opened mind window and probability to have your mind being unable to concentrate increases over time.
- hliyan 1mo ago
  Long ago, I heard this advice on some ancient management tape: "never let a piece of paper cross your desk twice". It stuck with me and I've got into the habit of immediately answering, archiving or on occasion setting a snooze timer (in GMail). If the recipient takes my promptness for granted, then I might adjust my policies for just that person. (Un)fortunately, it helps to be a manager -- then you can give feedback to people who don't read emails properly.

by mhaberl 1mo ago

john_strinlai 1mo ago

>This is true 100% I would even say: "Never reply on anything instantly that is not an absolute emergency, ever" you can shorten this to "never reply instantly", because an "absolute emergency" will never be communicated by email.

pixl97 1mo ago
When someones only contact with you is email, then that's how you'll get news of the emergency.
- john_strinlai 1mo ago
  i can't think of a situation where both the following are true: 1) someone having an emergency needs to contact me specifically. 2) that someone only has my email, and no other possible way of contacting me (or someone else that can contact me).
andy99 1mo ago
What is the problem with replying instantly? If you can give a reply immediately why wouldn’t you? If it’s low priority work that takes time, sure, but a typical yes/no, I’m available at 5, whatever, why not just send it? If you’ve already read the email it’s less efficient to come back to it later
- john_strinlai 1mo ago
  i'm not a strict adherent to the rule, your question would be better aimed at jillesvangurp or mhaberl. mainly i just wanted to stress that nothing in an email inbox is an "absolute emergency".
- throwaway98797 1mo ago
  it encourages back and forth. it trains people to expect things. boundaries.
catlifeonmars 1mo ago
Also, email delivery in general can be delayed for hours. It’s not common, but there are no delivery guarantees around email. You could reply immediately, and it could arrive in their inbox much later.
- prepend 1mo ago
  This doesn’t happen enough to me that I consider it.
  - catlifeonmars 1mo ago
    I once built an IdP that vended access one time codes via email. We had to switch to other means because there were a small (but significantly high) fraction of customers who didn’t receive their OTPs before they expired (TTL was 15 minutes). Also even if they came in before the TTL, a user experience that involved waiting that long to get logged in was not tenable.
swat535 1mo ago
I take that a step further, "absolute emergency" is rarely an "emergency". Based on my experience, it mostly translates to whatever task the person thinks it's important for them. Sometimes people will mark the task as "urgent" just to dump it on someone else. The other thing is, in critical emergencies, you should work slower than usual. This means muting all notifications and taking your time. Rushing to get things done can exacerbate the issue. Best engineering managers shield the team in those situation and simply reply with: "thanks, we've been notified and investigating".

chrisweekly 1mo ago

> "Write a long email that took time to reason and write, precise and complete text." Respectful hard disagree. Emails should be limited to five sentences. "I didn't have time to make a shorter reply" as an apology / disclaimer for rare exceptions. In virtually every case, anything longer belongs somewhere better than email (Slack, wiki / knowledgebase, docs site) or merits a realtime conversation. My PoV is shaped by over 20 years in the industry working at startups, SMBs and huge enterprises.

conductr 1mo ago
Hard disagree back. Email has multiple contexts when I would say that short form is ideal and should be the default but at times a thoroughly long form email is needed. Or, honestly, you just need to create a document at this point. It could be a slide deck or word/markdown/excel/etc (depends on context) and this should be in the email. But email is key. My experience is that people search subject lines, conversations, dates, and generally traverse historical conversations much better in email than in chat or a fully external application. They won’t search Slack, or try but can’t find the conversation. They won’t remember it’s on a wiki, you’ll constantly be redirecting them to the url. If the file is attached to an email, sometimes they’ll resurface it from a year+ ago. I find that’s way more common than someone referring to a chat from even a month ago. Chats are semi ephemeral. I’ve used both Teams and Slack and feel neither has really changed the game in terms of how the entire user base of an org use the system, enabling the historical reference points and moving it out of a ephemeral state, so email remains a stalwart for archival purposes and helps provide maximum context after the fact (people tend to elaborate on their choices more when writing an email).
- deleted 1mo ago
  [deleted]
- prepend 1mo ago
  I’ve found that a two-prong approach works best. Detail in the email, expect people to read it or fail. And include a reference to a wiki or some more detailed version that can be collaborated on and extended. So the email isn’t the primary source, the wiki is (really some markdown in git). But the email is the thing that people organize and find over time.

jillesvangurp 1mo ago

> Then I guess you didn't deal with much of the empty-headed-managment type much. I worked in a big multinational at the time ;-). So, yes. Mostly my direct managers were alright. Some were excellent even. But organizational politics and learning to read between the lines is part of working inside of big organizations. > You get a short reply that is a reply on a 1 sentence you wrote, twisted upside down ignoring completly the point that you had. Usually a clear sign that you are not communicating effectively. If it's important to you, you might want to figure out how to fix it. Talking is usually a good way.

the_af 1mo ago
> Usually a clear sign that you are not communicating effectively Agreed. I learned that in emails, a multi-paragraph, multi-item text means the recipient will randomly reply to only one of the points (often the least important one). So an effective email will make a single point, in as brief a manner as possible.
- andrewflnr 1mo ago
  This defines "communicating effectively" in a way that it can't possibly cover a complex topic. Sometimes you need to communicate complex topics, so this definition is a failure. The problem remains that people refuse to do the reading required for their job.
  - the_af 1mo ago
    > This defines "communicating effectively" in a way that it can't possibly cover a complex topic [...] so this definition is a failure. Indeed, I don't think email can be reliably used to convey complex topics. > The problem remains that people refuse to do the reading required for their job. Communicating effectively means accepting common flaws of people who are unlikely to change, and delivering your message in the most effective way. Whether people are right or wrong or should be fired (as another comment says) is not truly relevant. I often fail, by the way. I'm not saying I have this all figured out.

thesuitonym 1mo ago

If it's an emergency, you should call 911, or your country's equivalent. If that is not appropriate, then it's not an emergency.

majewsky 1mo ago
> Hello 911, our auth service is down following a malformed config deployment. "Emergency" is not the same as "emergency services".
- john_strinlai 1mo ago
  as i've gotten older, i've realized that an auth service being down does not fit my definition of emergency. which is the point the parent commenter was making, if im not mistaken.
- thesuitonym 1mo ago
  You're making my point exactly. Auth service being down is not an emergency.

sixtyj 1mo ago

Mail is async by nature. Read them 2-3 times a day only (you don’t check mailbox 100 times a day :) and you get things done… I prefer to reply to an e-mail immediately. Or never. If so than archive it or delete it. If you don’t answer immediately, you carry it as opened mind window and probability to have your mind being unable to concentrate increases over time.

hliyan 1mo ago
Long ago, I heard this advice on some ancient management tape: "never let a piece of paper cross your desk twice". It stuck with me and I've got into the habit of immediately answering, archiving or on occasion setting a snooze timer (in GMail). If the recipient takes my promptness for granted, then I might adjust my policies for just that person. (Un)fortunately, it helps to be a manager -- then you can give feedback to people who don't read emails properly.