3 ms·

>You can only make money by pleasing your customers. If only it were so. Alas, in the real world enshittification, shrinkflation, skimpflation, dark patterns,

by shmeeed 2mo ago

>You can only make money by pleasing your customers. If only it were so. Alas, in the real world enshittification, shrinkflation, skimpflation, dark patterns, planned obsolescence, vendor/platform lock-in, rent-seeking, regulatory capture and the like absolutely rule the day, due to a host of free market failures. I don't claim to have a better alternative. But I find your take a bit strange. Are you as a customer satisfied with how all of this is working out?

WalterBright 2mo ago
When was the last time you were forced to buy something you didn't want?
- shmeeed 2mo ago
  Quite recently, actually. The washing machine broke after 18 years. It was a cheap model at the time, but it held up well until the end. I'm under no illusion that the 50% more expensive replacement will last anywhere as long. You know, the old "they just don't build 'em like that anymore" that even the sellers tell you freely. I'd like to buy quality products. For example, I own a coffee machine for which the manufacturer provides spare parts for decades. But I'm not willing to spend 3x for an appliance when there's no realistic expectation to get 2-3x the use of it since it's not economically repairable. So the rational choice is to buy semi-cheap and throw it on the heap when it inevitably breaks sooner than the last one. I hate that game, but I'm not made of money either. Then the TV died. I did some research online and then spend a very disappointing hour browsing a local electronics shop to get a hands-on feel. It's all "smart" shit the software of which will go out of support within 5 years, with dedicated remote buttons advertising streaming services I don't use, too large screens and/or bad build quality, abysmal sound all around, and, not to forget, stuffed full of surveillance and ads. Out of sheer desperation, I got alarmingly close to spending $1.900 for a premium brand 43" that did tick all the boxes - namely, just being a TV that's as good and inobtrusive as the $700 one from 12 years ago. I finally resorted to buying an 7 year old unit from the same premium brand third hand for 1/7 the price. Which in the event turned out to be a really good deal, I admit, but I don't quite think the used market is what we're talking about here. It did not feel at all like the market for new products catered to my preferences. These may be a bit peculiar, but FWIW, I take that's a sentiment quite a few people on HN share: questions about "good dumb TVs" come up every so often, so I'm not alone in this. And don't get me started on printers...
  - WalterBright 2mo ago
    You were not forced to buy the TV. BTW, I see them for sale in pawn shops and thrift shops, with much much lower prices. My home theater came from the thrift store :0)
- jacquesm 2mo ago
  Today. I'm forced to buy and pay for Google's bundled AI crap even though I don't want it and never consented to it.
  - WalterBright 1mo ago
    No you weren't. Did Google threaten you with imprisonment?
    - rmunn 1mo ago
      To bring some clarity to this, it seems people are talking about being "forced" in different ways. WalterBright is using the correct definition of "forced" that means "you must buy this thing or else I'll shoot you / throw you in jail / fine you for non-compliance". Which does apply to some transactions: for example, in America you are (since the passage of the so-called Obamacare bill, officially called the Affordable Health Care Act) forced to buy health insurance: if you don't, the government will impose financial penalties on you. (Many people have health insurance through their employer so they don't pay for it directly, but someone is being forced to pay for it). But other people are using "forced" in the colloquial sense: "I'm not offered the thing I want, I'm only offered the thing I want bundled with something I don't want", e.g. I just want a TV, but I can't buy just a TV, I'm only offered the choice between a TV bundled with advertising or nothing at all. Hobson's Choice isn't a pleasant situation to be in, but you're not forced to buy that TV; you had the choice to buy nothing at all. It's not the same concept as "buy this product or we will impose a penalty", such as how Americans are now forced to buy health insurance. WalterBright - to your question "when was the last time you were forced to buy something you don't want?", the correct answer would have been "March 2010", when many people were forced to buy health insurance that they didn't want. Which goes to show that although many parts of the American economy are a free market, health insurance is not. "Coincidentally", prices went up once there was a lot more truly forced demand. Huh. Who ever could have predicted that when you forced more people to buy a product, its producers would be able to raise prices? Wow, so completely unexpected a result... no economists at all would have predicted that... (Yes, Friedrich Hayek, I see you screaming into your pillow. It's okay, I'm being sarcastic).

by shmeeed 2mo ago

WalterBright 2mo ago

When was the last time you were forced to buy something you didn't want?

shmeeed 2mo ago
Quite recently, actually. The washing machine broke after 18 years. It was a cheap model at the time, but it held up well until the end. I'm under no illusion that the 50% more expensive replacement will last anywhere as long. You know, the old "they just don't build 'em like that anymore" that even the sellers tell you freely. I'd like to buy quality products. For example, I own a coffee machine for which the manufacturer provides spare parts for decades. But I'm not willing to spend 3x for an appliance when there's no realistic expectation to get 2-3x the use of it since it's not economically repairable. So the rational choice is to buy semi-cheap and throw it on the heap when it inevitably breaks sooner than the last one. I hate that game, but I'm not made of money either. Then the TV died. I did some research online and then spend a very disappointing hour browsing a local electronics shop to get a hands-on feel. It's all "smart" shit the software of which will go out of support within 5 years, with dedicated remote buttons advertising streaming services I don't use, too large screens and/or bad build quality, abysmal sound all around, and, not to forget, stuffed full of surveillance and ads. Out of sheer desperation, I got alarmingly close to spending $1.900 for a premium brand 43" that did tick all the boxes - namely, just being a TV that's as good and inobtrusive as the $700 one from 12 years ago. I finally resorted to buying an 7 year old unit from the same premium brand third hand for 1/7 the price. Which in the event turned out to be a really good deal, I admit, but I don't quite think the used market is what we're talking about here. It did not feel at all like the market for new products catered to my preferences. These may be a bit peculiar, but FWIW, I take that's a sentiment quite a few people on HN share: questions about "good dumb TVs" come up every so often, so I'm not alone in this. And don't get me started on printers...
- WalterBright 2mo ago
  You were not forced to buy the TV. BTW, I see them for sale in pawn shops and thrift shops, with much much lower prices. My home theater came from the thrift store :0)
jacquesm 2mo ago
Today. I'm forced to buy and pay for Google's bundled AI crap even though I don't want it and never consented to it.
- WalterBright 1mo ago
  No you weren't. Did Google threaten you with imprisonment?
  - rmunn 1mo ago
    To bring some clarity to this, it seems people are talking about being "forced" in different ways. WalterBright is using the correct definition of "forced" that means "you must buy this thing or else I'll shoot you / throw you in jail / fine you for non-compliance". Which does apply to some transactions: for example, in America you are (since the passage of the so-called Obamacare bill, officially called the Affordable Health Care Act) forced to buy health insurance: if you don't, the government will impose financial penalties on you. (Many people have health insurance through their employer so they don't pay for it directly, but someone is being forced to pay for it). But other people are using "forced" in the colloquial sense: "I'm not offered the thing I want, I'm only offered the thing I want bundled with something I don't want", e.g. I just want a TV, but I can't buy just a TV, I'm only offered the choice between a TV bundled with advertising or nothing at all. Hobson's Choice isn't a pleasant situation to be in, but you're not forced to buy that TV; you had the choice to buy nothing at all. It's not the same concept as "buy this product or we will impose a penalty", such as how Americans are now forced to buy health insurance. WalterBright - to your question "when was the last time you were forced to buy something you don't want?", the correct answer would have been "March 2010", when many people were forced to buy health insurance that they didn't want. Which goes to show that although many parts of the American economy are a free market, health insurance is not. "Coincidentally", prices went up once there was a lot more truly forced demand. Huh. Who ever could have predicted that when you forced more people to buy a product, its producers would be able to raise prices? Wow, so completely unexpected a result... no economists at all would have predicted that... (Yes, Friedrich Hayek, I see you screaming into your pillow. It's okay, I'm being sarcastic).