4 ms·

> This requires that we accept that there is such a thing as a neutral procedure... Yes, it does. And we live in a society. So by extension we do already accep

by roenxi 2mo ago

> This requires that we accept that there is such a thing as a neutral procedure... Yes, it does. And we live in a society. So by extension we do already accept that neutral procedures are possible and that we have achieved them. The English Common Law systems and their derivatives are an astonishing success in achieving general fairness. People arguing against it have, with remarkable consistency, failed to come up with anything that reaches it's level of neutrality. In fact, normally people struggled to come up with general criticism beyond accusations that specific individuals didn't follow the procedures properly or relatively minor tweaks to the administrative details. Neutral procedures are a solved problem, the tricky part is convincing the law enforcement system to do things by the book.

john01dav 2mo ago
The law in North America and Europe (possibly elsewhere too, I don't know) is full of accommodations for special interests at the cost of everyone else, due to concentrated benefits and diffuse costs causing the former to lobby aggressively while the latter doesn't. To make a clear example: I don't think that it's fair that I'm not allowed to plumb my own (commercial¹) building just because I didn't learn how via a difficult to get, underpaid, full time, 4 year apprentiship in whatever state I'm living in at the moment, with usually ~0 practical escape hatch to demonstrate competence in any significantly different way, or to just have the result inspected. 1: some places, not all, have exemptions for owner occupied single family homes
lurk2 2mo ago
> And we live in a society. Correct. > So by extension we do already accept that neutral procedures are possible Doesn't follow. > and that we have achieved them. Doesn't follow. > The English Common Law systems and their derivatives are an astonishing success in achieving general fairness. That depends entirely upon what you mean by "fairness," which will itself be loaded with presumptions about how the world is and ought to be. > People arguing against it have, with remarkable consistency, failed to come up with anything that reaches it's level of neutrality. Define "neutrality." > Neutral procedures are a solved problem If this were true we wouldn't be having this discussion. > the tricky part is convincing the law enforcement system to do things by the book. "Draw the rest of the owl."
- rayiner 2mo ago
  > That depends entirely upon what you mean by "fairness," which will itself be loaded with presumptions about how the world is and ought to be. If you’re an immigrant from my home country of Bangladesh, you’ll be treated more fairly in any Anglo country than in any other country, including Bangladesh.
  - letmehelpyou 2mo ago
    [dead]

by roenxi 2mo ago

john01dav 2mo ago

The law in North America and Europe (possibly elsewhere too, I don't know) is full of accommodations for special interests at the cost of everyone else, due to concentrated benefits and diffuse costs causing the former to lobby aggressively while the latter doesn't. To make a clear example: I don't think that it's fair that I'm not allowed to plumb my own (commercial¹) building just because I didn't learn how via a difficult to get, underpaid, full time, 4 year apprentiship in whatever state I'm living in at the moment, with usually ~0 practical escape hatch to demonstrate competence in any significantly different way, or to just have the result inspected. 1: some places, not all, have exemptions for owner occupied single family homes

lurk2 2mo ago

> And we live in a society. Correct. > So by extension we do already accept that neutral procedures are possible Doesn't follow. > and that we have achieved them. Doesn't follow. > The English Common Law systems and their derivatives are an astonishing success in achieving general fairness. That depends entirely upon what you mean by "fairness," which will itself be loaded with presumptions about how the world is and ought to be. > People arguing against it have, with remarkable consistency, failed to come up with anything that reaches it's level of neutrality. Define "neutrality." > Neutral procedures are a solved problem If this were true we wouldn't be having this discussion. > the tricky part is convincing the law enforcement system to do things by the book. "Draw the rest of the owl."

rayiner 2mo ago
> That depends entirely upon what you mean by "fairness," which will itself be loaded with presumptions about how the world is and ought to be. If you’re an immigrant from my home country of Bangladesh, you’ll be treated more fairly in any Anglo country than in any other country, including Bangladesh.
- letmehelpyou 2mo ago
  [dead]