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One main difference is that those examples you brought up are ideological propaganda. RFE/RL try to amplify their message and yes, the current Russian regime is

One main difference is that those examples you brought up are ideological propaganda. RFE/RL try to amplify their message and yes, the current Russian regime is very antithetical to that message. Russian propaganda is not ideological, it tries to maximize the damage to western nations and uses whatever political and ideological message that will achieve that. They have been doing that for decades, which is something a hostile nation does. As for the assassinations, those are wartime actions by Ukraine. Not sure how they are supposed to fit into our discussion. As for Salisbury, so you found the story of these fitness supplement salesmen convincing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okrdqM6hNrI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okrdqM6hNrI It has been my impression that not even Russia tries to push that narrative any more.

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
Ideology? Yes, pure hatred is ideological - no matter which side of the dialectic you choose to align yourself. “American propaganda is not ideological, it tries to maximize the damage to Russia and uses whatever political and ideological message that will achieve that.” Huh, what do you know, that can be “true” as well. And the US and its allies have been hostile towards Russia - actually, for centuries now. I don’t find anything about Salisbury convincing - not the British investigations, nor the Russian ones. And the reason for that is, the evidence presented never holds up in an open, public, liberal democratic court of law - instead, the ideological propaganda that “Russians are assholes because they kill people” is propagated in the court of public opinion, which is as vicious and banal as you can possibly imagine (or else we wouldn’t need courts in the first place), no matter whether you attempt to argue from the Russian or Western perspective. Besides which, the moral altitude claimed “against” Russia by the West is simply a fallacy - you think we don’t murder people extrajudicially? I’ve got an ideological point for you: dropping one bomb every 15 minutes for 26 years, mostly on innocent children, women, and men is wrong and should be stopped. Any state which attempts to stop that, gets my vote - but it is not going to be stopped by any state. It is going to be stopped by the criminal states’ citizen body, which is - as we see bright and clear today - completely and utterly distracted by the hatespew against the citizens of other states, intentionally, by the people dropping the bombs - because they also own and control the means by which ideological propaganda such as “hate Russia” or “hate the West” is propagated, and they use it to expand the market for their weapons production... In short, you’re no better than any “Russian”, and neither am I. Our nations are murderous, criminal enterprises which produce mass murder at far, far greater scales than anything a trash can in Salisbury can produce.
- Paradigma11 2mo ago
  So you are saying Germany and the UK have no right to see Russia killing people on their soil as hostile act because the US drops some bombs in the middle east? The history is far more banal and less nefarious than you give it credit. Nobody gave a fuck about Russia. Russia was a self limited kleptocracy and everybody just ignored it because nobody needed the headache. That is why the reaction to the land grab in Georgia and later Crimea was pretty muted and everybody just hoped that Putin would be sated and ride into the sunset as great leader who took Crimea home into the motherland. But he wants an empire, and an empire can not be an empire if nobody cares. So he overplayed his hand to sate his vanity. One of his first public announcements after the invasion was: "I hope I am now being heard.." Well, the World heard and now it is raining oil in Moscow and the Russian provinces are getting depopulated.
  - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
    I think that Germany and the UK have all the rights they need to prosecute the criminals that have committed crimes on their territory, and doing so openly and democratically is the right kind of justice. But these incidents do not automatically give cause to hate the entire Russian nation any more than, say, the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government should be used to justify hatred of all Jews, everywhere. Obviously, they shouldn’t. > Nobody gave a fuck about Russia. This is so untrue. Western empires have been trying to balkanize Russia and colonize its resources, aggressively - since the 1800’s up until the modern era. Russia has been demonized for centuries so that Western powers can have a justification for their war industries. See, this is the problem with the lack of proper history education in the West. You can’t get your bearings from the History Channel alone. And then, there is international law. Do you really think the US and its allies are law-abiding members of the international community, given the grand litany of human rights abuses, war crimes, and crimes against humanity that have been committed this century alone? One bomb dropped every 15 minutes on an innocent life, for 26 years, does not give those next in line in the Western targeting sights much hope for peace. While Americans and other Western citizens (including Germans and Brits) are utterly myopic about this, the rest of the world are really not. The crimes against humanity committed by the 5-eyes states alone, far exceed anything that Russia has done thus far. By a huge, huge margin. > “depopulated” See also, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Pakistan, Palestine .. Wake me up when you start demanding justice for the war crimes of Mosul with the same ferocious tenacity as you call for Putins’ ears on the table.
rbanffy 2mo ago
> those examples you brought up are ideological propaganda These are the examples they were able to identify. And many of them could be so obviously identified because of ideological component. The alleged censorship of RT is more a counter-propaganda move: RT is a Russian vehicle that engages in a number of psychological warfare ops. And, BTW, the only thing Western countries have not done in Russia is assassinations with chemical or radiological weapons, possibly due to superior counter intelligence ops on Russia’s side. And because being identified was not in their best interest - unlike Russia, which is more easily identifiable up to recent times. At this point I am not sure how much destabilisation of the EU and NATO is coming from the US instead of Russia and China, which tended to be the usual suspects. These days anyone can run a competent disinformation warfare campaign.
- Paradigma11 2mo ago
  So you are saying that you also don't have any concrete examples of the West doing the same.
  - Sabinus 1mo ago
    As well as the humorous implication that the West would be doing all the same nasty assassinations as the Russians, if it weren't for the brave and mighty Russian intelligence services getting in their way.

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago

Ideology? Yes, pure hatred is ideological - no matter which side of the dialectic you choose to align yourself. “American propaganda is not ideological, it tries to maximize the damage to Russia and uses whatever political and ideological message that will achieve that.” Huh, what do you know, that can be “true” as well. And the US and its allies have been hostile towards Russia - actually, for centuries now. I don’t find anything about Salisbury convincing - not the British investigations, nor the Russian ones. And the reason for that is, the evidence presented never holds up in an open, public, liberal democratic court of law - instead, the ideological propaganda that “Russians are assholes because they kill people” is propagated in the court of public opinion, which is as vicious and banal as you can possibly imagine (or else we wouldn’t need courts in the first place), no matter whether you attempt to argue from the Russian or Western perspective. Besides which, the moral altitude claimed “against” Russia by the West is simply a fallacy - you think we don’t murder people extrajudicially? I’ve got an ideological point for you: dropping one bomb every 15 minutes for 26 years, mostly on innocent children, women, and men is wrong and should be stopped. Any state which attempts to stop that, gets my vote - but it is not going to be stopped by any state. It is going to be stopped by the criminal states’ citizen body, which is - as we see bright and clear today - completely and utterly distracted by the hatespew against the citizens of other states, intentionally, by the people dropping the bombs - because they also own and control the means by which ideological propaganda such as “hate Russia” or “hate the West” is propagated, and they use it to expand the market for their weapons production... In short, you’re no better than any “Russian”, and neither am I. Our nations are murderous, criminal enterprises which produce mass murder at far, far greater scales than anything a trash can in Salisbury can produce.

Paradigma11 2mo ago
So you are saying Germany and the UK have no right to see Russia killing people on their soil as hostile act because the US drops some bombs in the middle east? The history is far more banal and less nefarious than you give it credit. Nobody gave a fuck about Russia. Russia was a self limited kleptocracy and everybody just ignored it because nobody needed the headache. That is why the reaction to the land grab in Georgia and later Crimea was pretty muted and everybody just hoped that Putin would be sated and ride into the sunset as great leader who took Crimea home into the motherland. But he wants an empire, and an empire can not be an empire if nobody cares. So he overplayed his hand to sate his vanity. One of his first public announcements after the invasion was: "I hope I am now being heard.." Well, the World heard and now it is raining oil in Moscow and the Russian provinces are getting depopulated.
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  I think that Germany and the UK have all the rights they need to prosecute the criminals that have committed crimes on their territory, and doing so openly and democratically is the right kind of justice. But these incidents do not automatically give cause to hate the entire Russian nation any more than, say, the actions of the IDF and the Israeli government should be used to justify hatred of all Jews, everywhere. Obviously, they shouldn’t. > Nobody gave a fuck about Russia. This is so untrue. Western empires have been trying to balkanize Russia and colonize its resources, aggressively - since the 1800’s up until the modern era. Russia has been demonized for centuries so that Western powers can have a justification for their war industries. See, this is the problem with the lack of proper history education in the West. You can’t get your bearings from the History Channel alone. And then, there is international law. Do you really think the US and its allies are law-abiding members of the international community, given the grand litany of human rights abuses, war crimes, and crimes against humanity that have been committed this century alone? One bomb dropped every 15 minutes on an innocent life, for 26 years, does not give those next in line in the Western targeting sights much hope for peace. While Americans and other Western citizens (including Germans and Brits) are utterly myopic about this, the rest of the world are really not. The crimes against humanity committed by the 5-eyes states alone, far exceed anything that Russia has done thus far. By a huge, huge margin. > “depopulated” See also, Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria, Somalia, Pakistan, Palestine .. Wake me up when you start demanding justice for the war crimes of Mosul with the same ferocious tenacity as you call for Putins’ ears on the table.

rbanffy 2mo ago

> those examples you brought up are ideological propaganda These are the examples they were able to identify. And many of them could be so obviously identified because of ideological component. The alleged censorship of RT is more a counter-propaganda move: RT is a Russian vehicle that engages in a number of psychological warfare ops. And, BTW, the only thing Western countries have not done in Russia is assassinations with chemical or radiological weapons, possibly due to superior counter intelligence ops on Russia’s side. And because being identified was not in their best interest - unlike Russia, which is more easily identifiable up to recent times. At this point I am not sure how much destabilisation of the EU and NATO is coming from the US instead of Russia and China, which tended to be the usual suspects. These days anyone can run a competent disinformation warfare campaign.

Paradigma11 2mo ago
So you are saying that you also don't have any concrete examples of the West doing the same.
- Sabinus 1mo ago
  As well as the humorous implication that the West would be doing all the same nasty assassinations as the Russians, if it weren't for the brave and mighty Russian intelligence services getting in their way.