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My problem with this is two-fold: 1. Spree killings still happen without guns (see the similar school attacks in Asia where bladed weapons were used.) 2. This f

My problem with this is two-fold: 1. Spree killings still happen without guns (see the similar school attacks in Asia where bladed weapons were used.) 2. This focuses the conversation on the tools used in the incident instead of the source of the problem: mental health.

beedogs 14y ago
It's about statistics. Reduce the supply of ammunition (especially the kind of ammunition used in assault weapons), and you will reduce the number of mass murders, by a measurable amount. (And yes, I agree that the way the US and most Western countries treat their mentally ill is the major issue.)
- tsewlliw 14y ago
  Its not about statistics. If it were, we'd be contemplating things like taxing food in inverse proportion to its nutritional content and glycemic index.
bonaldi 14y ago
1. Those attacks were rather less lethal than the ones involving guns. 2. It focuses the conversation on achievable solutions. No country on earth has managed to solve the identification, treatment and care of mental health issues enough that would prevent one slipping through the net. Many, many countries have managed to reduce gun deaths to very low numbers indeed.
- deleted 14y ago
  [deleted]
- sarvinc 14y ago
  1. I don't think the argument is that firearms are less lethal only that attacks and death will still occur. 2. It focuses the conversation on, what I think is, the actual problem rather than something that is achievable but clearly does not solve the problem.
  - bonaldi 14y ago
    1. The argument is "how about we have less children dying". Which every other comparable country manages. 2. The problem is "being are being murdered with guns in astonishing numbers". You say mental health is the root cause, which may be correct. But the root cause is effectively unsolvable, and other countries show that the _problem_ can be fixed by addressing contributory causes, like the widespread availability of bullets.
    - sarvinc 14y ago
      To be clear you replyed to a previous poster who made two points. I defended those two points. These are two new points that I'll attempt to address. If there's one argument I cannot tolerate it's a "for the children" argument. Yes great lets have less children die. How do we do that? Killing sprees in China show that you can kill several children with just knives and gasoline. So after the guns we ban knives, we regulate gasoline, we restrict the press and instill a curfew because "for the children." Better yet, while we're just naming stuff that will make us feel better, why not a TSA-like agency for all public places, a Patriot Act to protect us from killing-spree and more warrant-less wiretapping because "for the children." Pedofiles on Facebook; regulate the Internet "because for the children." Can we please find a solution that does not strip freedoms from the sane and law-abiding among us? It won't solve the problem because we are not other countries. I don't say this out of hubris. Without addressing things like the gun-culture we have here or the irrational fear of crimes we have here people will find a way to procure firearms. I'm pretty sure in 10 years 3D-printing will have advanced enough for us to make upper-receivers. What then? Do we regulate computers "for the children?"
      - bonaldi 14y ago
        Fine, /s/children/people. Argument is precisely the same. And you have less of them dying of gunshots wounds by having fewer guns/ammunition. That won't stop knife crime, sure, but let's revisit that discussion when as many people are dying of knives in the US as die of gunshot wounds. And, yes, addressing the gun culture will have to be a component of this. But violent cultures can be changed. The US is a past master at it -- look at the post-WWII reconstruction it orchestrated in Japan.
zalew 14y ago
> Spree killings still happen without guns (see the similar school attacks in Asia where bladed weapons were used.) compare the number of people killed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_School_massacres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Schoo...
nextstep 14y ago
I am sick of hearing this argument referencing the spree killings in Asia with knives. In nearly every case, fewer people are killed when the weapon is a knife. Clearly guns are much more deadly than knives.
onetwothreefour 14y ago
No one was killed in the latest "spree killing" in Asia. Try again.
- sarvinc 14y ago
  en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiguan_kindergarten_attack 12 killed. Knives and gasoline used. It's terrible stuff but let's not argue from positions of ignorance and fear.

beedogs 14y ago

It's about statistics. Reduce the supply of ammunition (especially the kind of ammunition used in assault weapons), and you will reduce the number of mass murders, by a measurable amount. (And yes, I agree that the way the US and most Western countries treat their mentally ill is the major issue.)

tsewlliw 14y ago
Its not about statistics. If it were, we'd be contemplating things like taxing food in inverse proportion to its nutritional content and glycemic index.

bonaldi 14y ago

1. Those attacks were rather less lethal than the ones involving guns. 2. It focuses the conversation on achievable solutions. No country on earth has managed to solve the identification, treatment and care of mental health issues enough that would prevent one slipping through the net. Many, many countries have managed to reduce gun deaths to very low numbers indeed.

deleted 14y ago
[deleted]
sarvinc 14y ago
1. I don't think the argument is that firearms are less lethal only that attacks and death will still occur. 2. It focuses the conversation on, what I think is, the actual problem rather than something that is achievable but clearly does not solve the problem.
- bonaldi 14y ago
  1. The argument is "how about we have less children dying". Which every other comparable country manages. 2. The problem is "being are being murdered with guns in astonishing numbers". You say mental health is the root cause, which may be correct. But the root cause is effectively unsolvable, and other countries show that the _problem_ can be fixed by addressing contributory causes, like the widespread availability of bullets.
  - sarvinc 14y ago
    To be clear you replyed to a previous poster who made two points. I defended those two points. These are two new points that I'll attempt to address. If there's one argument I cannot tolerate it's a "for the children" argument. Yes great lets have less children die. How do we do that? Killing sprees in China show that you can kill several children with just knives and gasoline. So after the guns we ban knives, we regulate gasoline, we restrict the press and instill a curfew because "for the children." Better yet, while we're just naming stuff that will make us feel better, why not a TSA-like agency for all public places, a Patriot Act to protect us from killing-spree and more warrant-less wiretapping because "for the children." Pedofiles on Facebook; regulate the Internet "because for the children." Can we please find a solution that does not strip freedoms from the sane and law-abiding among us? It won't solve the problem because we are not other countries. I don't say this out of hubris. Without addressing things like the gun-culture we have here or the irrational fear of crimes we have here people will find a way to procure firearms. I'm pretty sure in 10 years 3D-printing will have advanced enough for us to make upper-receivers. What then? Do we regulate computers "for the children?"
    - bonaldi 14y ago
      Fine, /s/children/people. Argument is precisely the same. And you have less of them dying of gunshots wounds by having fewer guns/ammunition. That won't stop knife crime, sure, but let's revisit that discussion when as many people are dying of knives in the US as die of gunshot wounds. And, yes, addressing the gun culture will have to be a component of this. But violent cultures can be changed. The US is a past master at it -- look at the post-WWII reconstruction it orchestrated in Japan.

zalew 14y ago

> Spree killings still happen without guns (see the similar school attacks in Asia where bladed weapons were used.) compare the number of people killed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_School_massacres https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_rampage_killers:_Schoo...

nextstep 14y ago

I am sick of hearing this argument referencing the spree killings in Asia with knives. In nearly every case, fewer people are killed when the weapon is a knife. Clearly guns are much more deadly than knives.

onetwothreefour 14y ago

No one was killed in the latest "spree killing" in Asia. Try again.

sarvinc 14y ago
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiguan_kindergarten_attack 12 killed. Knives and gasoline used. It's terrible stuff but let's not argue from positions of ignorance and fear.