4 ms·

> And you don't think they deserve exclusive exploitation rights to that discipline for the next 20 years? 20 years is the midpoint between the Wright Brother’

by mulmen 2mo ago

> And you don't think they deserve exclusive exploitation rights to that discipline for the next 20 years? 20 years is the midpoint between the Wright Brother’s flight and operational jet fighters. They won the race but it was very much a competition. If Orville and Wilbur didn’t cross the line first then Maxim or Langley would have. They all built on George Cayley’s work. So no, I don’t think the first one to file a plausible patent should get exclusive rights. It should at least extend to contemporaries. And we should consider the cost to innovation when breakthroughs are artificially constrained for what amounts to multiple technological generations.

natpalmer1776 2mo ago
Very much this. The incentive to create and invent is often largely financial, however that incentive need not be constructed as “winner takes all” rather we should lift each other up in our mutual accomplishments. Unfortunately in my own ruminating on the topic the only practical alternatives seem to be one or more variations on the scary boogey man of socialism.
- WalterBright 2mo ago
  > The incentive to create and invent is often largely financial, however that incentive need not be constructed as “winner takes all” rather we should lift each other up in our mutual accomplishments. The Wrights definitely were in it for the money. The government project was the Langley Prototype, which cost 20 times more than what the Wrights spent, and fell into the Potomac like a sack of wet cement. > the scary boogey man of socialism For good reason. Socialism's track record is pretty bad. They're always running out of other peoples' money.
  - natpalmer1776 2mo ago
    Certainly socialism is a heavy and dangerous solution to most problems, the critiques of it are many, and of the many most are fair. I say boogeyman not to imply it is without problems but rather to say that in the problem spaces that it is often deplored the incumbent alternative is often categorically worse for all those who do not directly benefit from it, which is usually a supermajority at a minimum. Thus, to make the incumbent more tolerable a caricature of an idea is brought forth to scare those who would otherwise support an aspirational idealist into backing the known “lesser” evils.
  - robocat 2mo ago
    > Socialism's track record is pretty bad However the track record for developed countries communally sharing "intellectual property" is much much better. Universities, open source, and public domain all have some crossover with the ideals of socialism. Yes, communism has repeatedly failed spectacularly. The softer socialism of public welfare has worked (so far) for many countries including the US. Although I'm skeptical about the future given modern demographics and our governments' choices to appease a majority. The governments of most developed countries smell socialist to me. I'm from New Zealand and most private income/property is taxed up the wahoo to pay for our social welfare programs: it doesn't take much squinting to see my own society as broadly socialist. Somehow I see people in the US complaining that the Chinese are beating the US at capitalism (regular complaints of price undercutting and monopolistic behaviours) - what's weird since the Chinese are supposed to be pinkos.
    - WalterBright 2mo ago
      The Chinese switched from communism to free markets. Prosperity resulted.
      - anthk 2mo ago
        Hybrid system, actually. No 100% pure system survived, ever. Be capitalist, communist, or technology philosophy bound. The GNU project tried to expand Unix with ITS editors (Emacs), utilities, ITS'like freedom and Lisp (Emacs and Scheme, again). For a while the most used editor for Unixen wasn't vi or a vi descendant (vim), but Emacs, an editor alien to Unix. Knowing Vi was almost something 'mandatory' in order to manage servers' configuration under any Unix like OS, and ed on hard emergencies where even the terminal wasn't reliable enough. Windows needs WSL2 and POSIX compat to be relevant today. Win32 itself doesn't run on top of a DOS like VM having almost a 95% of control of the machine, but on a VMS'like kernel with objects a la IBM. MacOS itself it's just a Macintosh like UI made from NeXTStep scraps, a Mach kernel and pieces from a FreeBSD useland.
      - close04 2mo ago
        > switched from communism to free markets Free markets are a component of capitalism just as they are a component of market socialism. China is a planned economy which stands in contrast to a market economy. But China has taken bits and pieces from many systems to create something that works for them, a hybrid that's probably specific to China alone. It's just capitalist enough to be able to interface with big wallets around the world, but we can all agree China itself is very far from being free market capitalism.
  - close04 2mo ago
    > Socialism's track record is pretty bad. There aren't many pure socialist countries like there aren't many (any?) pure capitalist countries. Most of Europe operates in mixed mode, half socialist. Some countries are very bad (and against) at implementing any measures that directly benefit the lower classes (as opposed to the typical capitalist "trickle-down economics") so they vilify anything that has even the faintest smell of socialism. > They're always running out of other peoples' money. I wish people would stop parroting this as some sort of deep insight. Capitalists don't run out of other people's money but they do collect all of it. Ask the capitalists who sink other people's investments with no recourse. Ask the capitalists who get funded from people's pension funds, with "interesting" IPO strategies. Don't turn a blind eye for the sake of a remark which was witty a few decades ago and sounds just ignorant today.
    - WalterBright 2mo ago
      > Capitalists don't run out of other people's money but they do collect all of it No, they don't "collect all of it". Musk's trillion dollars was created, it was not "collected". > which was witty a few decades ago and sounds just ignorant today. Countries that turn to socialism are always running massive deficits paid for with inflation. American states and cities that lean into socialism are all having major problems with running out of money and raising taxes.
  - benj111 2mo ago
    >For good reason. Socialism's track record is pretty bad. They're always running out of other peoples' money. Define socialism. Isn't the collectively owned road outside your property essentially socialism? Would that work better if it were privately owned?
    - WalterBright 2mo ago
      [flagged]
    - letmehelpyou 1mo ago
      [dead]
WalterBright 2mo ago
The Wrights were about 5 years ahead of their time. The Wrights went about it as an R+D project and calculated what the design must be, while the other developers were doing seat-of-the-pants designs which worked about as expected.
- benj111 2mo ago
  Except we don't do wing warping anymore, or take many design cues from the wrights at all. Hard to say they were ahead when they were in an evolutionary dead end.
  - WalterBright 2mo ago
    Wright accomplishments that were crucial to making a working airplane: 1. First propeller theory, which got them a propeller that was 90% efficient rather than the 50% efficiency of contemporary propellers. The theory has only been slightly improved today. 2. First 3 axis control system, copied by everyone else. Yes, ailerons are a better system, but it's the same idea. 3. First aviation engine with a power/weight ration double anyone else's. 4. First research and development project where the problems of flight were identified and then prototypes developed to solve each of the problems. 5. Extensive use of a wind tunnel to determine the optimal cross-section shape of the wing. 6. Use of calculations to determine the size and lift of the wing, and how much power was needed from the engine. All airplane designs trace their lineage back to the 1903 Flyer, not anybody else's airplane.

by mulmen 2mo ago

natpalmer1776 2mo ago

Very much this. The incentive to create and invent is often largely financial, however that incentive need not be constructed as “winner takes all” rather we should lift each other up in our mutual accomplishments. Unfortunately in my own ruminating on the topic the only practical alternatives seem to be one or more variations on the scary boogey man of socialism.

WalterBright 2mo ago
> The incentive to create and invent is often largely financial, however that incentive need not be constructed as “winner takes all” rather we should lift each other up in our mutual accomplishments. The Wrights definitely were in it for the money. The government project was the Langley Prototype, which cost 20 times more than what the Wrights spent, and fell into the Potomac like a sack of wet cement. > the scary boogey man of socialism For good reason. Socialism's track record is pretty bad. They're always running out of other peoples' money.
- natpalmer1776 2mo ago
  Certainly socialism is a heavy and dangerous solution to most problems, the critiques of it are many, and of the many most are fair. I say boogeyman not to imply it is without problems but rather to say that in the problem spaces that it is often deplored the incumbent alternative is often categorically worse for all those who do not directly benefit from it, which is usually a supermajority at a minimum. Thus, to make the incumbent more tolerable a caricature of an idea is brought forth to scare those who would otherwise support an aspirational idealist into backing the known “lesser” evils.
- robocat 2mo ago
  > Socialism's track record is pretty bad However the track record for developed countries communally sharing "intellectual property" is much much better. Universities, open source, and public domain all have some crossover with the ideals of socialism. Yes, communism has repeatedly failed spectacularly. The softer socialism of public welfare has worked (so far) for many countries including the US. Although I'm skeptical about the future given modern demographics and our governments' choices to appease a majority. The governments of most developed countries smell socialist to me. I'm from New Zealand and most private income/property is taxed up the wahoo to pay for our social welfare programs: it doesn't take much squinting to see my own society as broadly socialist. Somehow I see people in the US complaining that the Chinese are beating the US at capitalism (regular complaints of price undercutting and monopolistic behaviours) - what's weird since the Chinese are supposed to be pinkos.
  - WalterBright 2mo ago
    The Chinese switched from communism to free markets. Prosperity resulted.
    - anthk 2mo ago
      Hybrid system, actually. No 100% pure system survived, ever. Be capitalist, communist, or technology philosophy bound. The GNU project tried to expand Unix with ITS editors (Emacs), utilities, ITS'like freedom and Lisp (Emacs and Scheme, again). For a while the most used editor for Unixen wasn't vi or a vi descendant (vim), but Emacs, an editor alien to Unix. Knowing Vi was almost something 'mandatory' in order to manage servers' configuration under any Unix like OS, and ed on hard emergencies where even the terminal wasn't reliable enough. Windows needs WSL2 and POSIX compat to be relevant today. Win32 itself doesn't run on top of a DOS like VM having almost a 95% of control of the machine, but on a VMS'like kernel with objects a la IBM. MacOS itself it's just a Macintosh like UI made from NeXTStep scraps, a Mach kernel and pieces from a FreeBSD useland.
    - close04 2mo ago
      > switched from communism to free markets Free markets are a component of capitalism just as they are a component of market socialism. China is a planned economy which stands in contrast to a market economy. But China has taken bits and pieces from many systems to create something that works for them, a hybrid that's probably specific to China alone. It's just capitalist enough to be able to interface with big wallets around the world, but we can all agree China itself is very far from being free market capitalism.
- close04 2mo ago
  > Socialism's track record is pretty bad. There aren't many pure socialist countries like there aren't many (any?) pure capitalist countries. Most of Europe operates in mixed mode, half socialist. Some countries are very bad (and against) at implementing any measures that directly benefit the lower classes (as opposed to the typical capitalist "trickle-down economics") so they vilify anything that has even the faintest smell of socialism. > They're always running out of other peoples' money. I wish people would stop parroting this as some sort of deep insight. Capitalists don't run out of other people's money but they do collect all of it. Ask the capitalists who sink other people's investments with no recourse. Ask the capitalists who get funded from people's pension funds, with "interesting" IPO strategies. Don't turn a blind eye for the sake of a remark which was witty a few decades ago and sounds just ignorant today.
  - WalterBright 2mo ago
    > Capitalists don't run out of other people's money but they do collect all of it No, they don't "collect all of it". Musk's trillion dollars was created, it was not "collected". > which was witty a few decades ago and sounds just ignorant today. Countries that turn to socialism are always running massive deficits paid for with inflation. American states and cities that lean into socialism are all having major problems with running out of money and raising taxes.
- benj111 2mo ago
  >For good reason. Socialism's track record is pretty bad. They're always running out of other peoples' money. Define socialism. Isn't the collectively owned road outside your property essentially socialism? Would that work better if it were privately owned?
  - WalterBright 2mo ago
    [flagged]
  - letmehelpyou 1mo ago
    [dead]

WalterBright 2mo ago

The Wrights were about 5 years ahead of their time. The Wrights went about it as an R+D project and calculated what the design must be, while the other developers were doing seat-of-the-pants designs which worked about as expected.

benj111 2mo ago
Except we don't do wing warping anymore, or take many design cues from the wrights at all. Hard to say they were ahead when they were in an evolutionary dead end.
- WalterBright 2mo ago
  Wright accomplishments that were crucial to making a working airplane: 1. First propeller theory, which got them a propeller that was 90% efficient rather than the 50% efficiency of contemporary propellers. The theory has only been slightly improved today. 2. First 3 axis control system, copied by everyone else. Yes, ailerons are a better system, but it's the same idea. 3. First aviation engine with a power/weight ration double anyone else's. 4. First research and development project where the problems of flight were identified and then prototypes developed to solve each of the problems. 5. Extensive use of a wind tunnel to determine the optimal cross-section shape of the wing. 6. Use of calculations to determine the size and lift of the wing, and how much power was needed from the engine. All airplane designs trace their lineage back to the 1903 Flyer, not anybody else's airplane.