8 ms·

So punchline, probably a good idea to electrify all the cars yeah?

by XorNot 2mo ago

jimbob45 2mo ago
That doesn’t solve brake and tire particles. Although…rail might solve those?
- cousinbryce 2mo ago
  https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-... Rail, bike, even busses are better. Cars are uniquely bad transportation in urban environments
  - mhandley 2mo ago
    Do the numbers in that article make sense? 5.8g/km for tyre wear? Generally my tyres last maybe 25000 miles. So at that rate they would lose 230kg. Seems high.
    - lazide 2mo ago
      They might be counting trucks?
    - danparsonson 2mo ago
      "Non-exhaust emissions (NEE) are particles released into the air from brake wear, tyre wear, road surface wear and resuspension of road dust during on-road vehicle usage." I guess they mean total non-exhaust particulates.
- mhandley 2mo ago
  Tyre, no, but regen braking almost eliminates brake particles at the speeds I drive in London. But mostly I take the train. Unfortunately the highest I measured on my particulate sensor is not near the roads, but in the tube.
- jillesvangurp 2mo ago
  EVs use regenerative braking. So they hardly produce any brake particulates. And the tire particulates are heavy so they don't stay airborn for nearly as long. At low speeds, tires don't wear out as quickly. Europe has quite a few cities where traffic is increasingly discouraged from going to the inner cities. Cities like Paris and London are much transformed from what they used to be and it shows in the health statistics. It's not just the particulates but also nitrous oxides (nox) produced by combustion engines. Nox is correlated with lots of health issues. Take it away and you see lower rates of chronic lung issues, cancer, development issues with kids, etc. But yes, tires are also an issue. But a fairly minor one to anything coming out of a combustion engine. Mass transit indeed is nice in big cities. Removes the need for taking the car.
  - 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 2mo ago
    There is a generator at the end of my street in a shipping container sized metal box, it also has a mini office and loo, and is used by the construction workers digging holes in the road. It has company spiel written on the side, promoting the box's environmental credentials, including the punchline: 'Zero NOX when generator not in use'. No shit Sherlock.
    - testing22321 2mo ago
      I look forward to the day coke is marketed as “zero fat!”
      - mrguyorama 2mo ago
        Why are you still looking? During the 90s "Fat is evil" craze, all yogurt was replaced with "Fat free" yogurt that had 100 extra calories worth of sugar. The yogurt aisle in the US is still primarily made up of this garbage product category which exists based on utter falsehoods pushed by the sugar industry. 30 years later and we are still constrained by what ignorant fad chasers in the 90s did.
    - throwaway89201 2mo ago
      Might instead refer to a start-stop / battery backup kind of system, where idling-but-on doesn't burn any fuel, but sudden loads can still be serviced.
- masklinn 2mo ago
  > That doesn’t solve brake and tire particles. Regen braking means significantly less brake dust, especially at city speeds and with blended braking. > Although…rail might solve those? Trains still have brakes. Some can regen brake but because they usually don’t have batteries they need the rail or overhead gantry to support inputs. But on a passenger-mile basis, I expect an electric train produces essentially no particulates compared to a car, even a light rail on tyres. I do not however have numbers.
  - jurip 2mo ago
    I believe at least subways tend to have lousy air: https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/subway-air-pollution-disproportionately-impacts-new-york-citys-minority-and-low-income https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/subway-air-pollution-dispro... But I expect it's much better in open-air rail systems.
    - masklinn 2mo ago
      I was thinking open-air yes, tunnels do indeed have major issue. With pollutant concentrations, road tunnels are the same (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1361920920306659 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13619...). For all that I did not care for them originally this is probably something full-height platform screen doors help with, assuming the trains themselves are also filtered that would keep the pollutants clear of drivers and users, although it does not exactly resolve the question of managing their presence in the tunnels themselves (and track / tunnel maintenance personnel should probably already be wearing respirators if not full breathing apparatus), and I could see things get pretty dire in case of breakdowns.
      - rsynnott 2mo ago
        Impossible to retrofit, of course, but what helps more are big tunnels. Modern ~9m diameter single tunnel systems are a lot better for this than old 3.5m diameter double tunnel systems.
  - Symbiote 2mo ago
mellosouls 2mo ago
Probably a much better idea first to have a decent public transport and electric car support network throughout the country first. We don't all live in the city.
- hdgvhicv 2mo ago
  And those of us who don’t can just plug in at home.
  - mellosouls 2mo ago
    Except for the many many people who don't have off street parking.
    - Ancapistani 2mo ago
      Who lives in the country that doesn't have "off street parking"? I'm having trouble envisioning that.
      - mellosouls 2mo ago
        I'm having trouble envisioning that. Yeah that seems to be the general problem here. Electric car champions and city dwellers living in a bubble.
        hdgvhicv 2mo ago
        City dwellers are the ones that use public land to store their cars. Of the three Villages I know well (my sisters, the one I lived in until moving to a larger 8000 person town, and the one with the primary school) I can’t think of any Likewise the tiny hamlets I drove through on the way to school didn’t have people parking on the road, there’s simply no room. You occasionally get delivery vehicles stop and it causes chaos.
        mellosouls 2mo ago
simonsquiff 2mo ago
100%, and not just due to no emissions / minimal break dust. The noise reduction is a massive dividend. I used to live in london 10+ years ago, and when I come back I’m stunned by the noise difference, it really is so much quieter especially in central london. EVs everywhere especially replacing the horribly noisy diesel black cabs and buses. Very noticeably different and much more pleasant, and improving all the time as EV adoption continues to accelerate, hooray
- jabl 2mo ago
  Absolutely. It's annoying though that EV's need that extra Darth Vader on wheels sound to warn pedestrians, I'd prefer them to be as quiet as possible.
  - adonovan 2mo ago
    You can switch it off, or make it play one of several different ridiculous sounds.
    - dotancohen 2mo ago
      On which vehicles can the humming in reverse gear be switched off? I understand the Tesla (my car) and the BYD (expires car) can not turn that off.
      - dotancohen 2mo ago
        I find "expires" as a swypo for "exwife" somehow fitting.
  - garbawarb 2mo ago
    A lot of jurisdictions have laws that say electric cars must emit thatbnoise while driving. Which is basically because you might not be able to hear them over the louder sound of gas cars. I hope that that requirement can go away if we get to near 100% electric.
- zekrioca 2mo ago
Gibbon1 2mo ago
Electric vehicles are stills cars. But better than gasoline and especially diesel cars. So yeah. That said not clear to me about PM2.5 is I've never seen anything legit seeming that tries to characterize the harm based on the type/source. Though it seems agreed diesel is especially bad.
ZeroGravitas 2mo ago
Yes, and... In some areas of London the ULEZ has been so successful that the measured NOx is now coming mostly from gas boilers used for heating, probably mostly old large commerical units. So shifting from gas boilers to heat pumps and from gas ovens and stoves to electric/indusction is also beneficial.
cryptopian 2mo ago
London's also been putting effort into improving safe bicycle routes lately. I visit London every few weeks and if I'm going somewhere in central, I'll often just grab one of the Santander hire bikes instead of the tube. Well, most of London (looking at you, Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea)

So punchline, probably a good idea to electrify all the cars yeah?

by XorNot 2mo ago

So punchline, probably a good idea to electrify all the cars yeah?

jimbob45 2mo ago

That doesn’t solve brake and tire particles. Although…rail might solve those?

cousinbryce 2mo ago
https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-worse-exhaust-emissions https://www.emissionsanalytics.com/news/pollution-tyre-wear-... Rail, bike, even busses are better. Cars are uniquely bad transportation in urban environments
- mhandley 2mo ago
  Do the numbers in that article make sense? 5.8g/km for tyre wear? Generally my tyres last maybe 25000 miles. So at that rate they would lose 230kg. Seems high.
  - lazide 2mo ago
    They might be counting trucks?
  - danparsonson 2mo ago
    "Non-exhaust emissions (NEE) are particles released into the air from brake wear, tyre wear, road surface wear and resuspension of road dust during on-road vehicle usage." I guess they mean total non-exhaust particulates.
mhandley 2mo ago
Tyre, no, but regen braking almost eliminates brake particles at the speeds I drive in London. But mostly I take the train. Unfortunately the highest I measured on my particulate sensor is not near the roads, but in the tube.
jillesvangurp 2mo ago
EVs use regenerative braking. So they hardly produce any brake particulates. And the tire particulates are heavy so they don't stay airborn for nearly as long. At low speeds, tires don't wear out as quickly. Europe has quite a few cities where traffic is increasingly discouraged from going to the inner cities. Cities like Paris and London are much transformed from what they used to be and it shows in the health statistics. It's not just the particulates but also nitrous oxides (nox) produced by combustion engines. Nox is correlated with lots of health issues. Take it away and you see lower rates of chronic lung issues, cancer, development issues with kids, etc. But yes, tires are also an issue. But a fairly minor one to anything coming out of a combustion engine. Mass transit indeed is nice in big cities. Removes the need for taking the car.
- 6LLvveMx2koXfwn 2mo ago
  There is a generator at the end of my street in a shipping container sized metal box, it also has a mini office and loo, and is used by the construction workers digging holes in the road. It has company spiel written on the side, promoting the box's environmental credentials, including the punchline: 'Zero NOX when generator not in use'. No shit Sherlock.
  - testing22321 2mo ago
    I look forward to the day coke is marketed as “zero fat!”
    - mrguyorama 2mo ago
      Why are you still looking? During the 90s "Fat is evil" craze, all yogurt was replaced with "Fat free" yogurt that had 100 extra calories worth of sugar. The yogurt aisle in the US is still primarily made up of this garbage product category which exists based on utter falsehoods pushed by the sugar industry. 30 years later and we are still constrained by what ignorant fad chasers in the 90s did.
  - throwaway89201 2mo ago
    Might instead refer to a start-stop / battery backup kind of system, where idling-but-on doesn't burn any fuel, but sudden loads can still be serviced.
masklinn 2mo ago
> That doesn’t solve brake and tire particles. Regen braking means significantly less brake dust, especially at city speeds and with blended braking. > Although…rail might solve those? Trains still have brakes. Some can regen brake but because they usually don’t have batteries they need the rail or overhead gantry to support inputs. But on a passenger-mile basis, I expect an electric train produces essentially no particulates compared to a car, even a light rail on tyres. I do not however have numbers.
- jurip 2mo ago
  I believe at least subways tend to have lousy air: https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/subway-air-pollution-disproportionately-impacts-new-york-citys-minority-and-low-income https://engineering.nyu.edu/news/subway-air-pollution-dispro... But I expect it's much better in open-air rail systems.
  - masklinn 2mo ago
    I was thinking open-air yes, tunnels do indeed have major issue. With pollutant concentrations, road tunnels are the same (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1361920920306659 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S13619...). For all that I did not care for them originally this is probably something full-height platform screen doors help with, assuming the trains themselves are also filtered that would keep the pollutants clear of drivers and users, although it does not exactly resolve the question of managing their presence in the tunnels themselves (and track / tunnel maintenance personnel should probably already be wearing respirators if not full breathing apparatus), and I could see things get pretty dire in case of breakdowns.
    - rsynnott 2mo ago
      Impossible to retrofit, of course, but what helps more are big tunnels. Modern ~9m diameter single tunnel systems are a lot better for this than old 3.5m diameter double tunnel systems.
- Symbiote 2mo ago

mellosouls 2mo ago

Probably a much better idea first to have a decent public transport and electric car support network throughout the country first. We don't all live in the city.

hdgvhicv 2mo ago
And those of us who don’t can just plug in at home.
- mellosouls 2mo ago
  Except for the many many people who don't have off street parking.
  - Ancapistani 2mo ago
    Who lives in the country that doesn't have "off street parking"? I'm having trouble envisioning that.
    - mellosouls 2mo ago
      I'm having trouble envisioning that. Yeah that seems to be the general problem here. Electric car champions and city dwellers living in a bubble.
      - hdgvhicv 2mo ago
        City dwellers are the ones that use public land to store their cars. Of the three Villages I know well (my sisters, the one I lived in until moving to a larger 8000 person town, and the one with the primary school) I can’t think of any Likewise the tiny hamlets I drove through on the way to school didn’t have people parking on the road, there’s simply no room. You occasionally get delivery vehicles stop and it causes chaos.
        mellosouls 2mo ago

simonsquiff 2mo ago

100%, and not just due to no emissions / minimal break dust. The noise reduction is a massive dividend. I used to live in london 10+ years ago, and when I come back I’m stunned by the noise difference, it really is so much quieter especially in central london. EVs everywhere especially replacing the horribly noisy diesel black cabs and buses. Very noticeably different and much more pleasant, and improving all the time as EV adoption continues to accelerate, hooray

jabl 2mo ago
Absolutely. It's annoying though that EV's need that extra Darth Vader on wheels sound to warn pedestrians, I'd prefer them to be as quiet as possible.
- adonovan 2mo ago
  You can switch it off, or make it play one of several different ridiculous sounds.
  - dotancohen 2mo ago
    On which vehicles can the humming in reverse gear be switched off? I understand the Tesla (my car) and the BYD (expires car) can not turn that off.
    - dotancohen 2mo ago
      I find "expires" as a swypo for "exwife" somehow fitting.
- garbawarb 2mo ago
  A lot of jurisdictions have laws that say electric cars must emit thatbnoise while driving. Which is basically because you might not be able to hear them over the louder sound of gas cars. I hope that that requirement can go away if we get to near 100% electric.
zekrioca 2mo ago

Gibbon1 2mo ago

Electric vehicles are stills cars. But better than gasoline and especially diesel cars. So yeah. That said not clear to me about PM2.5 is I've never seen anything legit seeming that tries to characterize the harm based on the type/source. Though it seems agreed diesel is especially bad.

ZeroGravitas 2mo ago

Yes, and... In some areas of London the ULEZ has been so successful that the measured NOx is now coming mostly from gas boilers used for heating, probably mostly old large commerical units. So shifting from gas boilers to heat pumps and from gas ovens and stoves to electric/indusction is also beneficial.

cryptopian 2mo ago

London's also been putting effort into improving safe bicycle routes lately. I visit London every few weeks and if I'm going somewhere in central, I'll often just grab one of the Santander hire bikes instead of the tube. Well, most of London (looking at you, Royal Borough of Kensington and Chelsea)