8 ms·
I have no exposure to connectomes - or really anything quite like this (as opposed to good ol’ fashioned perceptrons) - so forgive my following uninformed quest
by DaiPlusPlus 2mo ago
I have no exposure to connectomes - or really anything quite like this (as opposed to good ol’ fashioned perceptrons) - so forgive my following uninformed question:
Can someone explain if this software is ethical?
- lp4v4n 2mo agoHow could this be anti-ethical? You're just running a very complex algorithm in your machine.
- j16sdiz 2mo agoWhen one truly believes: 0) Subjecting fruitfly life to this kind of treatment is unethical. 1) Life is just physics in action. 2) Physics are just algorithm (or our physical world is a simulation) It is not hard to understand why they think it is unethical. My question are 1) is all life equal? 2) is all suffering unethical? 3) is this world materialistic or are there something out there? 4) should a list of items begin with 0 or 1?
- fluoridation 2mo agoIf life is physics and physics is an algorithm, it doesn't follow that an algorithm reproducing the physics of life contains life, even if we grant that it actually reproduces it completely and perfectly. That's just confusing the symbol for the thing.
- idiotsecant 2mo agoIf it reproduces it perfectly it's not a symbolic representation of the thing, it is the thing, by any definition that makes sense.
- fluoridation 2mo agoIt's not the thing, because the thing is made of substance, not electronic impulses. No matter how hard you compute, you will never compute the simulation into a real, tangible object. The simulation and the real object are extremely, obviously distinguishable, even though they're structurally analogous. If you could simulate a human perfectly, the simulated human would not be a human, it would be a simulated human. It's not a given that it would be subject to the same rules of ethics as real humans.
- peddling-brink 2mo agoYikes. So because it can’t hit you back, you’re ok with it suffering? Also relevant short story: https://qntm.org/mmacevedo https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
- fluoridation 2mo agoI just said it's not a given. It's not immediately obvious. EDIT: I prefer SOMA's take on it.
- dainank 2mo agoI disagree. If the simulation of electronic impulses is exactly the same as what occurs 'in the substance', then merely the medium over which signals occur is different. In my eyes, whatever is experiencing these signals will experience them the same way. See https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48175140#48177554 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48175140#48177554
- fluoridation 2mo agoSorry, I can't respond because I don't know which statement in particular you're disagreeing with. What I can say is that, unless you're using words in a surprising way, I agree with >If the simulation of electronic impulses is exactly the same as what occurs 'in the substance', then merely the medium over which signals occur is different. In my eyes, whatever is experiencing these signals will experience them the same way. and I don't see how it's in contradiction with anything I said.
- inigyou 2mo agohttps://qntm.org/mmacevedo https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
- deleted 2mo ago[deleted]
- ramraj07 2mo agoWhy do you think it wont be?
- twothreeone 2mo agoWell, one obvious question is if the simulated brain experiences pain, or more generally can it suffer? And if so, how would we tell.
- fluoridation 2mo agoWhat does "suffering" mean? Define your boolean function, apply it to the state of the program, and you'll know if the program is currently suffering.
- logicallee 2mo agoI've ported it to the browser and connected a squash functionality behind an ethical guardrail (you have to lift a cover to engage this functionality). need to iterate on the ui but will share it soon. you can squash the bug and cause it real pain. it also sees you if you turn your camera on and reacts to your movements. this is all wired up and I'll post it shortly.
- DaiPlusPlus 2mo agoI can’t tell if you’re a talented comedian - or if you should be assessed for sociopathy.
- logicallee 2mo agothe pain is momentary and behind a guardrail.
- janalsncm 2mo ago> Can someone explain if this software is ethical? Probably not. People have been coming up with ethical frameworks for thousands of years and we have yet to come to a consensus. So it’s very unlikely that someone can say conclusively whether this is ethical or not, because that would require us to either 1) prove a single ethical framework is correct and then apply that framework to this software or 2) prove that under all possible ethical frameworks this software is either ethical or not ethical.
- _def 2mo agoGenuinely curious, is there like a simple list of competing ethical frameworks?
- jasonjayr 2mo agoNot to drop any spoilers (hide this comment before reading further ....) But "The Amazing Digital Circus" explores this concept relating to human brain scans, and how the 'simulated' brains would react under simulation.
- SamBam 2mo agoSimilarly, the story Lena by qntm.[1] It describes in part how some volunteer brain scans are actually quite agreeable to work with until they work for too many hours, and then they get fussy, but it's cool, you can always reboot them. But you need to hide from them the fact that it's been decades since they were scanned and uploaded, or they'll realize how long they've been slaves for. 1. https://qntm.org/mmacevedo https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
- mock-possum 2mo agoand both Black Mirror and Westworld explore these same ‘what-if’s’ in turn.
- jamilton 2mo agoIt really does not "explore" the concept, it just features it as a plot element.
- jephs 2mo agoIf your circle of empathy includes fruit flies, fuck no, we murdered so many of those guys to figure out how their tiny brains work. If you do not think of fruit flies as moral patients, sure, yeah, who cares, they're like just fruit flies you know?
- yawpitch 2mo agoIf your circle of empathy doesn’t include fruit flies, endeavor to expand your circular of empathy until it does. Goto 0.
- sgt 2mo agoAre you seriously suggesting that we should have empathy for ... fruit flies? Speechless
- agilemonkey 2mo agoWhy not ? Do you think that in the grand scheme of the universe you are more important than a fruit fly ?
- sgt 2mo agoI'd hope so! The way that a planet is more important than a snowball.
- yawpitch 2mo agoDepends a great deal on the planet and the snowball, doesn’t it? But, that said, a mark of being more important than a lesser being would kind of be the virtue of still empathizing with that being, even if we assume there’s a hierarchy. And considering you and I are really just elaborate transport vessels for E. Coli and a lot of fungal spores, I’m not sure we should assume there’s a hierarchy.
- brookst 2mo agoImportant by what measure?
- hellohello2 2mo agoYes I can, no problem. First figure out how consciousness works and tell me, then I'll be able to explain if the software is ethical or not. Its simple really.
- DaiPlusPlus 2mo agoAs we don’t know yet, it has to be determined by the balance of probabilities; but even if the weight of evidence leads us to conclude that-there’s-no-consciousness going on when you run this, there’s still going to be a chance of us being wrong, let’s say 10%… Is the utility (…or entertainment value) of this program worth a 10% chance that we confidently, yet unwittingly, create perhaps the most cruellest machine it’s ever possible to make, and then have to live with ourselves?
- randomImmigrant 2mo agoYes. Because it’s a simulation of a living thing. It’s still electrons moving around silicon. It deserves the respect your MacBook does. Which is not nothing. But certainly not what’s due to a life.
- reverius42 2mo agoA lot of people believe that this reality, in which we're conversing on HN, is also a simulation (thus making the fruit fly a simulation within a simulation).
- randomImmigrant 2mo agoCool. Believe away. But even in that belief, this is a lower order simulation than life, no? Or are we now supposed to buy this fly connectome was made by our simulators using the same tech that runs us?
- inigyou 2mo agohttps://qntm.org/mmacevedo https://qntm.org/mmacevedo
- vincnetas 2mo agoIs ethics another tool in a power play game (religion being another) that people use to exert dominance over other people? No one expects of cat or pigeon to be ethical. But somehow humans sometimes get overloaded by external demand to think of gazillion things that might offend someone (sometimes unreasonable demands, or how it might get interpreted (sometimes incorrectly)) before acting. Im not saying ethics is bad, but sometimes people bend to to extremes (same like spirituality or religion)
- yawpitch 2mo agoEthics has nothing to do with how an action is perceived, rather its focus is on is the action moral. One should never take any action without considering the ethical implications of that action. Being capable of that is, arguably, the sole thing that meaningfully separates us from the (real or simulated) fruitfly.
- fluoridation 2mo agoI think the question is valid. Why should a human have a moral responsibility towards non-humans, while a cat doesn't have a moral responsibility towards non-cats, just because the human is capable of making moral judgements? Is there any analogous situation where capacity engenders responsibility? Are gorillas more responsible for how they use their strength, since they're stronger than humans? >Being capable of that is, arguably, the sole thing that meaningfully separates us from the (real or simulated) fruitfly. That's a bit of an extreme hyperbole, don't you think?
- dudefeliciano 2mo agoIt would be a great starting point if human felt moral responsibility towards other humans, before we take on the matter of ethics towards non-humans, simulated fireflies or LLMs. Yet here we are.
- darkwater 2mo ago> Why should a human have a moral responsibility towards non-humans, while a cat doesn't have a moral responsibility towards non-cats, just because the human is capable of making moral judgements? Because as a human you recognize patterns in other animals that are similar to ours - the deepest pattern being alive - so you can project your feelings over them. This is also called empathy, and some in our kind lack it completely, but I would dare to say that is globally one of the defining traits of the human species.
- andbberger 2mo agounbelievable amount of coarse graining to get from a real fly to this. same leve of ethical quandary as giving your dog a stuffed bear to tear apart. besides, you should see the things we do to real flies...
- bad_username 2mo agoI believe that any simulation of consciousness is consciousness, so ethical implications apply. But I also don't believe fruit flies are conscious for any definition of that word.
- dsign 2mo ago> if this software is ethical? IMO, it absolutely is. First, if fruit flies could suffer existential anguish the same way humans do, they would breathe in relief that digital upload is in sight. Second, even if the fruit flies don't care, a lot of (awful) humans would love a resolution to the matter of souls in a way that results in a raised middle finger to a forever-hypothetical Creator, and if we can't yet escape cancer, heart disease, parkinson and all the other awfuls, now at least the fruit flies are on their way out. Which rejoices said (truly awful!) humans, which will take what they can :-)