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> There's a fairly good case to be made that playing by, and being able to set, international norms is in the long term interest of powerful countries. There's

> There's a fairly good case to be made that playing by, and being able to set, international norms is in the long term interest of powerful countries. There's also a fairly good case to be made that not playing by international norms is in the long term interest of powerful (and not powerful) countries. For example, China didn't get to be the likely second superpower by respecting intellectual property rights, South China Sea territorial claims, human rights, intellectual pluralism, environmental protections, or any of the other things that the post-Cold War international order considered important, especially prior to 9/11. The only thing that ultimately matters is if you make the right people the right amount of money at the right time. China does this through cheap labor and by setting up supply chains that the rest of the world either can't or won't, particularly with regard to workers' rights and environmental concerns.

Barrin92 2mo ago
high wages, intellectual pluralism or trade disputes aren't part of the bedrock of international norms. China actually did spend a huge amount of energy to join the international institutions like the WTO. Whether they maximize their leeway within them is another story but they've consistently pushed for an international approach and expanded their influence within international institutions, not outside of them. That's why they're so well networked now. And that's also btw the reason the US is throwing a big old fit in the first place, they feel like they've lost their influence largely to China and other emerging economies. Even though China may not meet your standards for what a liberal society looks like, China has not gone rogue, quite the opposite.
- lenerdenator 2mo ago
  > high wages, intellectual pluralism or trade disputes aren't part of the bedrock of international norms. Well, the idea, particularly before 9/11, is that they could be. You'd have increased manufacturing in developing countries lifting up their peoples out of poverty. You'd have democratic republicanism in more places so that people would have a say in their government. Trade disputes would be handled by international bodies like the WTO. Otherwise, you have the norms being the opposite, and what we're regressing to. You have a powerful elite that wants to rent-seek off the rest of the population, install totalitarian regimes to secure their place at the top, and form international blocs that resolve resource and economic disputes in more belligerent ways to both secure and expand their area of totalitarian, rent-seeking control.

Barrin92 2mo ago

high wages, intellectual pluralism or trade disputes aren't part of the bedrock of international norms. China actually did spend a huge amount of energy to join the international institutions like the WTO. Whether they maximize their leeway within them is another story but they've consistently pushed for an international approach and expanded their influence within international institutions, not outside of them. That's why they're so well networked now. And that's also btw the reason the US is throwing a big old fit in the first place, they feel like they've lost their influence largely to China and other emerging economies. Even though China may not meet your standards for what a liberal society looks like, China has not gone rogue, quite the opposite.

lenerdenator 2mo ago
> high wages, intellectual pluralism or trade disputes aren't part of the bedrock of international norms. Well, the idea, particularly before 9/11, is that they could be. You'd have increased manufacturing in developing countries lifting up their peoples out of poverty. You'd have democratic republicanism in more places so that people would have a say in their government. Trade disputes would be handled by international bodies like the WTO. Otherwise, you have the norms being the opposite, and what we're regressing to. You have a powerful elite that wants to rent-seek off the rest of the population, install totalitarian regimes to secure their place at the top, and form international blocs that resolve resource and economic disputes in more belligerent ways to both secure and expand their area of totalitarian, rent-seeking control.