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I don't love (but use...) Amazon but I think if done properly, ads can be relevant even when searching for a specific thing. Let's use a Google Example: I sear

I don't love (but use...) Amazon but I think if done properly, ads can be relevant even when searching for a specific thing. Let's use a Google Example: I search for Toyota RAV4 and get an ad for Mazda cx-50. Obviously Toyota hates that but as a consumer it has a chance of making me aware of something I didn't know but would want to know, especially as a part of a purchase decision. That's why Mazda pays for that ad slot, and also why Toyota makes it expensive for them :) Obviously google in this scenario comes out ahead and it is annoying for some users but can be highly valuable if done well. It's not how I search or shop but plenty of people do.

ryukoposting 2mo ago
No. If I search "Toyota RAV4" what I mean is Toyota RAV4. If I meant Mazda CX-50 I would have typed "Mazda CX-50." If I wanted information about various mid-size SUVs, rather than one in particular, I'd have searched "midsize SUVs." The number of times I have searched something, got back something I did not ask for, and found that helpful, rounds down to zero. It's actively destructive to the platforms that allow this kind of hijacking of search terms.
- ScoobleDoodle 2mo ago
  Agreed. Also a search along the lines “cars like Toyota RAV4" when I intend to broaden the search to other equivalents, because I don’t know the terminology.
- enquirewithin 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - wolfd 2mo ago
    I think that it’s fine, and good, to critique the way that corporations do their business. That’s kinda one of the core tenets of capitalism, no?
- rexer 2mo ago
  Are you saying that because it’s across company boundaries? Or would you be similarly upset if one result was for a Toyota Highlander? Or for a Toyota RAV4 XSE but not the LE trim I gotta say, I think you’re in the minority. I suspect most folks appreciate the cross shopping suggestion
  - Dusseldorf 2mo ago
    Yes! It's very frustrating when I think I'm browsing several variations of a single product, only to realize that some of the results are a totally different product, the brand doesn't affect it either way. I'm fine seeing results for multiple trims if I didn't specify one.
    - samplatt 2mo ago
      >I'm fine seeing results for multiple trims if I didn't specify one. And when you DO specify one, but get results for something else entirely?
  - samplatt 2mo ago
    The day searches started giving us ads instead of what we asked for (as opposed to in addition to what we asked for) was the day they stopped being useful. Which for Google was many years ago. This is not "cross shopping suggestions", it's an abuse of a monopoly for profit. Literally everyone I know feels this way, even if they don't care about it as passionately. No one "appreciates" being openly manipulated to their financial detriment.
- xyzelement 2mo ago
  I agree that this is true for you and probably even for me. But think about normal human conversation - when a friend tells me they are going to buy a rav-4 that weekend,I am 100% going to tell that then I had a rental CX-50 last week and would recommend they take a look at it. In other words: putting a new concept on someone's radar that they hadn't thought about but is relevant to them is hugely valuable. Think about it like this: - lots of people searched Rav 4 - some of them clicked the ad for cx-50 - some of them ended up test driving the cx-50 - some of them bought it For the people that clicked / test drive / bought - there's clearly something important that happened as a result (whether it changed the final outcome or not) Though yes personally I would be like "compact suvs 2026 reviews" as my starting point so that would never be me - but not everyone is me.
  - lpghatguy 2mo ago
    Having those things come up in conversation with a friend, who we can probably trust to deliver good information to us, is _way_ different than a platform that is going to potentially profit if they can sway you another direction. If my friend is involved in an MLM scheme, I'm not going to trust them that I should buy NutriProteinShakeMax! I probably don't want them to tell me about it, ever!
  - ryukoposting 2mo ago
    > when a friend tells Pause. Amazon is not my friend. Neither is Google, or Netflix, or Temu, or any other website or service. When I ask an e-commerce website for something, I'm not looking for normal human conversation. I'm looking for a product. More generally, when I'm asking a computer for something, I'm still not looking to have a conversation. I'm looking for results. Quaint, I know. If I want Amazon to "put new ideas on my radar" I'll ask for that explicitly. Spoiler alert: I won't. It's a website where you buy things, not a goddamn mood board.
esalman 2mo ago
You search for Toyota RAV4, and you get an ad for whoever paid Google the most money to fingerprint your profile and bias your purchase decision. Since when did we start trusting everything we see on the Internet?
nashashmi 2mo ago
That’s pay to spam. Letting advertisers determine relevance of their product to a keyword is not exactly a user enhancing experience. When searching for rav4, i give you the ad for taylor swift concert, obviously understanding you can pay for it. This is spamming. “Relevant” ads should be determined by content producers
- asr 2mo ago
  Would you, while shopping for a car, decide to buy very expensive concert tickets? Neither would I. So this campaign would have very low CTR and would perform poorly. It would only perform well if you identified some actual source of latent demand. For example, maybe many people searching for Taylor Swift concert tickets would actually be happy with movie tickets to see a simulcast. At which point, you are providing real information to some searchers. We can debate and disagree about whether this is something you want in your search results, but it’s not spam. Spam exists because it doesn’t have to compete in an auction.
  - prepend 2mo ago
    Or if you confused people and made them make mistakes. Or exploited some addiction. Maybe hurricane care insurance would have a high CTR even though it sucks. Maybe impulse purchases would have high CTR. People choose to do lots of anti-user things (eg, sugar sodas and diabetes, cigarettes, 9 year car loans at 14%, etc). Enabling bad things is a bad thing.
yunwal 2mo ago
This is the most baffling comment I think I’ve ever read
- Invictus0 2mo ago
  Did you know that the sum of the natural numbers is -1/12?
  - esalman 2mo ago
    -1/12 is the finite offset after isolating the divergent series. Try something more baffling.
ButlerianJihad 2mo ago
In any retail webstore, or even on Spotify, YouTube, etc. all the searches are infuriating today. If I search for specific terms then I get a menu of slop to choose from. Search isn't built to serve the searcher at all. Search is meant to surface things that are promoted, hyped, advertised, or paid for in some way. So you search Amazon for stuff and a lot of crap added on to it. Any retail site's filters are useless for filtering out what you don't want to see or casting a net for desirable features. I swear--search for "bananas" at a grocery store and you'll get results for ice cream and baby food and Minions merchandise and organic pears? This behavior has already crept into LLM responses. I often request that they compile a list of the top-5 or top-10 according to some criteria. And it never fails that they cannot resist giving me outliers and things that don't fit by any means. Now I don't know what influences an LLM to give stupid non-matching results, but I know they do. Is RLHF already baking-in advertising and sponsorship? I wouldn't rule it out. Case in point: the other day I was thinking of Amy Schumer but couldn't remember her name. So I struck up a convo with Copilot, and described Schumer by profession, personality, and physical attributes. Copilot first suggested a slender Black woman. Then Diablo Cody. And eventually compiled me a list of 5-7 people who were nothing like Amy Schumer. Never once even thought to mention her. Once I surfaced her name by other means, I went back and scolded Copilot, just so I could feel smug and better about myself. But it's genuinely surreal.
- prepend 2mo ago
  What physical attributes did you use. When it comes to funny or successful female comedians, I don’t think Amy Shumer would be in the top 7. Also, maybe you’re hitting an equity filter that purposely doesn’t compare race, sex, weight, etc. Recently chatgpt said it couldn’t estimate the race and age of a person in a photo because it would violate ethical norms. The photo was of me and then I tried again with a friend of mine.
- initatus 2mo ago
  Me: Give me a list of 30 minute podcasts ... Gpt3something: <List> The first one has 90 minute episodes! 30 minutes only! <You can listen for 30 minutes across three sessions.>
prepend 2mo ago
Do you work in ads? In what world is this true? Maybe if I searched “rav4 vs” Cynically, this seems like the blargh Google says about how ads make our lives better. I think that’s BS and think ads are noise I have to push through to do whatever I’m trying to do.

ryukoposting 2mo ago

No. If I search "Toyota RAV4" what I mean is Toyota RAV4. If I meant Mazda CX-50 I would have typed "Mazda CX-50." If I wanted information about various mid-size SUVs, rather than one in particular, I'd have searched "midsize SUVs." The number of times I have searched something, got back something I did not ask for, and found that helpful, rounds down to zero. It's actively destructive to the platforms that allow this kind of hijacking of search terms.

ScoobleDoodle 2mo ago
Agreed. Also a search along the lines “cars like Toyota RAV4" when I intend to broaden the search to other equivalents, because I don’t know the terminology.
enquirewithin 2mo ago
[flagged]
- wolfd 2mo ago
  I think that it’s fine, and good, to critique the way that corporations do their business. That’s kinda one of the core tenets of capitalism, no?
rexer 2mo ago
Are you saying that because it’s across company boundaries? Or would you be similarly upset if one result was for a Toyota Highlander? Or for a Toyota RAV4 XSE but not the LE trim I gotta say, I think you’re in the minority. I suspect most folks appreciate the cross shopping suggestion
- Dusseldorf 2mo ago
  Yes! It's very frustrating when I think I'm browsing several variations of a single product, only to realize that some of the results are a totally different product, the brand doesn't affect it either way. I'm fine seeing results for multiple trims if I didn't specify one.
  - samplatt 2mo ago
    >I'm fine seeing results for multiple trims if I didn't specify one. And when you DO specify one, but get results for something else entirely?
- samplatt 2mo ago
  The day searches started giving us ads instead of what we asked for (as opposed to in addition to what we asked for) was the day they stopped being useful. Which for Google was many years ago. This is not "cross shopping suggestions", it's an abuse of a monopoly for profit. Literally everyone I know feels this way, even if they don't care about it as passionately. No one "appreciates" being openly manipulated to their financial detriment.
xyzelement 2mo ago
I agree that this is true for you and probably even for me. But think about normal human conversation - when a friend tells me they are going to buy a rav-4 that weekend,I am 100% going to tell that then I had a rental CX-50 last week and would recommend they take a look at it. In other words: putting a new concept on someone's radar that they hadn't thought about but is relevant to them is hugely valuable. Think about it like this: - lots of people searched Rav 4 - some of them clicked the ad for cx-50 - some of them ended up test driving the cx-50 - some of them bought it For the people that clicked / test drive / bought - there's clearly something important that happened as a result (whether it changed the final outcome or not) Though yes personally I would be like "compact suvs 2026 reviews" as my starting point so that would never be me - but not everyone is me.
- lpghatguy 2mo ago
  Having those things come up in conversation with a friend, who we can probably trust to deliver good information to us, is _way_ different than a platform that is going to potentially profit if they can sway you another direction. If my friend is involved in an MLM scheme, I'm not going to trust them that I should buy NutriProteinShakeMax! I probably don't want them to tell me about it, ever!
- ryukoposting 2mo ago
  > when a friend tells Pause. Amazon is not my friend. Neither is Google, or Netflix, or Temu, or any other website or service. When I ask an e-commerce website for something, I'm not looking for normal human conversation. I'm looking for a product. More generally, when I'm asking a computer for something, I'm still not looking to have a conversation. I'm looking for results. Quaint, I know. If I want Amazon to "put new ideas on my radar" I'll ask for that explicitly. Spoiler alert: I won't. It's a website where you buy things, not a goddamn mood board.

esalman 2mo ago

You search for Toyota RAV4, and you get an ad for whoever paid Google the most money to fingerprint your profile and bias your purchase decision. Since when did we start trusting everything we see on the Internet?

nashashmi 2mo ago

That’s pay to spam. Letting advertisers determine relevance of their product to a keyword is not exactly a user enhancing experience. When searching for rav4, i give you the ad for taylor swift concert, obviously understanding you can pay for it. This is spamming. “Relevant” ads should be determined by content producers

asr 2mo ago
Would you, while shopping for a car, decide to buy very expensive concert tickets? Neither would I. So this campaign would have very low CTR and would perform poorly. It would only perform well if you identified some actual source of latent demand. For example, maybe many people searching for Taylor Swift concert tickets would actually be happy with movie tickets to see a simulcast. At which point, you are providing real information to some searchers. We can debate and disagree about whether this is something you want in your search results, but it’s not spam. Spam exists because it doesn’t have to compete in an auction.
- prepend 2mo ago
  Or if you confused people and made them make mistakes. Or exploited some addiction. Maybe hurricane care insurance would have a high CTR even though it sucks. Maybe impulse purchases would have high CTR. People choose to do lots of anti-user things (eg, sugar sodas and diabetes, cigarettes, 9 year car loans at 14%, etc). Enabling bad things is a bad thing.

yunwal 2mo ago

This is the most baffling comment I think I’ve ever read

Invictus0 2mo ago
Did you know that the sum of the natural numbers is -1/12?
- esalman 2mo ago
  -1/12 is the finite offset after isolating the divergent series. Try something more baffling.

ButlerianJihad 2mo ago

In any retail webstore, or even on Spotify, YouTube, etc. all the searches are infuriating today. If I search for specific terms then I get a menu of slop to choose from. Search isn't built to serve the searcher at all. Search is meant to surface things that are promoted, hyped, advertised, or paid for in some way. So you search Amazon for stuff and a lot of crap added on to it. Any retail site's filters are useless for filtering out what you don't want to see or casting a net for desirable features. I swear--search for "bananas" at a grocery store and you'll get results for ice cream and baby food and Minions merchandise and organic pears? This behavior has already crept into LLM responses. I often request that they compile a list of the top-5 or top-10 according to some criteria. And it never fails that they cannot resist giving me outliers and things that don't fit by any means. Now I don't know what influences an LLM to give stupid non-matching results, but I know they do. Is RLHF already baking-in advertising and sponsorship? I wouldn't rule it out. Case in point: the other day I was thinking of Amy Schumer but couldn't remember her name. So I struck up a convo with Copilot, and described Schumer by profession, personality, and physical attributes. Copilot first suggested a slender Black woman. Then Diablo Cody. And eventually compiled me a list of 5-7 people who were nothing like Amy Schumer. Never once even thought to mention her. Once I surfaced her name by other means, I went back and scolded Copilot, just so I could feel smug and better about myself. But it's genuinely surreal.

prepend 2mo ago
What physical attributes did you use. When it comes to funny or successful female comedians, I don’t think Amy Shumer would be in the top 7. Also, maybe you’re hitting an equity filter that purposely doesn’t compare race, sex, weight, etc. Recently chatgpt said it couldn’t estimate the race and age of a person in a photo because it would violate ethical norms. The photo was of me and then I tried again with a friend of mine.
initatus 2mo ago
Me: Give me a list of 30 minute podcasts ... Gpt3something: <List> The first one has 90 minute episodes! 30 minutes only! <You can listen for 30 minutes across three sessions.>

prepend 2mo ago

Do you work in ads? In what world is this true? Maybe if I searched “rav4 vs” Cynically, this seems like the blargh Google says about how ads make our lives better. I think that’s BS and think ads are noise I have to push through to do whatever I’m trying to do.