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I don't care what they built. If you want to fight them, man up and go get them! US forces did this in Iraq. Let's see gods chosen people be so brave.

jameshilliard 2mo ago
> I don't care what they built. If you want to fight them, man up and go get them! US forces did this in Iraq. Let's see gods chosen people be so brave. It's a war, military strategy doesn't tend to put much emphasis on making wars a fair fight. Israel isn't under any obligation to go out of their way to preserve structures built on top of military infrastructure(i.e. tunnels). There were certainly not tunnel networks in Iraq like there were in Gaza.
- gosub100 2mo ago
  Tunnel networks are not a reason to bomb civilian apartments. Let's arm both sides equally if you want to talk about a war. What would happen in a equal fight, do you think?
  - jameshilliard 2mo ago
    > Tunnel networks are not a reason to bomb civilian apartments. According the laws of war military infrastructure(i.e. tunnels) is a valid reason. > Let's arm both sides equally if you want to talk about a war. Nobody at war wants the fight to be fair, they will always want to be on the winning side. > What would happen in a equal fight, do you think? If a fight were truly equal then neither side would win, so I guess if it were equal then the conflict would be even more endless since neither side would win.
boxed 2mo ago
The civilian casualties in Gaza are lower than the US managed in Iraq in dense urban areas. So.. yea they did and still you complain.
- watutalkinbout 2mo ago
  What data are you using exactly? Iraq had well over 10 times the population (26-27 million) and the war lasted about 10 years. "Mortality in Iraq Associated with the 2003–2011 War and Occupation"[pubmed] put the figure at about 132,000 war related deaths. "Iraq body count" was about 158,000. Taking the highest figure that's about 0.6% of the population over the 10 years. I think the estimates for Gaza, with a population of about 2.2 million, are between 70 to 75,000. That's over 3% of the population over 2 years. So on a 'per year' basis for % of population - that's 0.06% for Iraq versus 1.6% for Gaza. That's over 25 times higher in Gaza than Iraq.
  - jameshilliard 2mo ago
    > Taking the highest figure Some groups do put the figures above 1 million.[0] > I think the estimates for Gaza, with a population of about 2.2 million, are between 70 to 75,000. Keep in mind these figures are not civilian casualty figures, they are overall casualty figures. Data quality issues do make comparisons rather tricky. Generally you would also want to compare against similar battles that have mainly urban conflict rather than a war in a large country where the amount of fighting varied much more. In any case looking at raw casualty numbers doesn't really give one the best picture by itself, analyzing combatant to civilian death ratios is probably better than population death ratios as that gives you a better idea at how careful parties are at reducing civilian casualties. Unfortunately Hamas also uses tactics that are designed to increase civilian casualties as well which further complicates comparative analysis. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualt...
    - watutalkinbout 2mo ago
      80% of ORB's estimated deaths came from four central governorates (completely excluding 3 altogether), and the mortality responses in those areas had major internal inconsistencies. The conclusion of peer-reviewed critique is that the ORB mortality data were not credible. That said, if someone is going to make a contentious claim, referencing the evidence or using some data to work up a basic attempt to substantiate the claim is the only to look like you aren't just making up claims. If data just on deaths is varying by a whole factor of 10, I can't see how you could possibly get anywhere near any meaningful figure for 'combatant to civilian death ratios' in Iraq. You're adding another layer ontop of data that you already recognise is hugely flawed. Add to that the issue that, in Gaza, Israel has completely sealed off the area from international observers, so credible data on "combatant to civilian death ratios" just won't exist. All I can say is that based on the data, the claim made is absolutely not supported by the evidence. [Edit - even if the million figure were credible, it's still at least double, and actually indicating the opposite of what was claimed]

jameshilliard 2mo ago

> I don't care what they built. If you want to fight them, man up and go get them! US forces did this in Iraq. Let's see gods chosen people be so brave. It's a war, military strategy doesn't tend to put much emphasis on making wars a fair fight. Israel isn't under any obligation to go out of their way to preserve structures built on top of military infrastructure(i.e. tunnels). There were certainly not tunnel networks in Iraq like there were in Gaza.

gosub100 2mo ago
Tunnel networks are not a reason to bomb civilian apartments. Let's arm both sides equally if you want to talk about a war. What would happen in a equal fight, do you think?
- jameshilliard 2mo ago
  > Tunnel networks are not a reason to bomb civilian apartments. According the laws of war military infrastructure(i.e. tunnels) is a valid reason. > Let's arm both sides equally if you want to talk about a war. Nobody at war wants the fight to be fair, they will always want to be on the winning side. > What would happen in a equal fight, do you think? If a fight were truly equal then neither side would win, so I guess if it were equal then the conflict would be even more endless since neither side would win.

boxed 2mo ago

The civilian casualties in Gaza are lower than the US managed in Iraq in dense urban areas. So.. yea they did and still you complain.

watutalkinbout 2mo ago
What data are you using exactly? Iraq had well over 10 times the population (26-27 million) and the war lasted about 10 years. "Mortality in Iraq Associated with the 2003–2011 War and Occupation"[pubmed] put the figure at about 132,000 war related deaths. "Iraq body count" was about 158,000. Taking the highest figure that's about 0.6% of the population over the 10 years. I think the estimates for Gaza, with a population of about 2.2 million, are between 70 to 75,000. That's over 3% of the population over 2 years. So on a 'per year' basis for % of population - that's 0.06% for Iraq versus 1.6% for Gaza. That's over 25 times higher in Gaza than Iraq.
- jameshilliard 2mo ago
  > Taking the highest figure Some groups do put the figures above 1 million.[0] > I think the estimates for Gaza, with a population of about 2.2 million, are between 70 to 75,000. Keep in mind these figures are not civilian casualty figures, they are overall casualty figures. Data quality issues do make comparisons rather tricky. Generally you would also want to compare against similar battles that have mainly urban conflict rather than a war in a large country where the amount of fighting varied much more. In any case looking at raw casualty numbers doesn't really give one the best picture by itself, analyzing combatant to civilian death ratios is probably better than population death ratios as that gives you a better idea at how careful parties are at reducing civilian casualties. Unfortunately Hamas also uses tactics that are designed to increase civilian casualties as well which further complicates comparative analysis. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualties https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ORB_survey_of_Iraq_War_casualt...
  - watutalkinbout 2mo ago
    80% of ORB's estimated deaths came from four central governorates (completely excluding 3 altogether), and the mortality responses in those areas had major internal inconsistencies. The conclusion of peer-reviewed critique is that the ORB mortality data were not credible. That said, if someone is going to make a contentious claim, referencing the evidence or using some data to work up a basic attempt to substantiate the claim is the only to look like you aren't just making up claims. If data just on deaths is varying by a whole factor of 10, I can't see how you could possibly get anywhere near any meaningful figure for 'combatant to civilian death ratios' in Iraq. You're adding another layer ontop of data that you already recognise is hugely flawed. Add to that the issue that, in Gaza, Israel has completely sealed off the area from international observers, so credible data on "combatant to civilian death ratios" just won't exist. All I can say is that based on the data, the claim made is absolutely not supported by the evidence. [Edit - even if the million figure were credible, it's still at least double, and actually indicating the opposite of what was claimed]