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There isn’t really a settled definition of “civilization” but usually one of the requirements is developing some kind of writing system without outside influenc

There isn’t really a settled definition of “civilization” but usually one of the requirements is developing some kind of writing system without outside influence. As far as we know the people at Gobekli Tepe did not have one. Granted you can also argue the same about Incans and to some extent Mesoamericans, so it’s kind of debatable.

nephihaha 2mo ago
One of the definitions of civilisation is the building of substantial permanent settlements. Gobekli Tepe does qualify in that sense, as does Chatal Hoyuk. Gobekli Tepe features notable sculptures too.
usrnm 2mo ago
There are very few places on Earth that developed writing completely independently, without any external influence. Far fewer than "civilizations"
- AlotOfReading 2mo ago
  The parent is just failing to explain a more fully developed concept called the "urban revolution", which classically has 10 characteristics of which writing is one and not all of which need to be present [0]. This entire discussion stems from the fact that the word "civilization" is essentially defined to fit the societies people already consider civilizations. There are technologically, politically, and socially complex societies that aren't "civilizations". My recommendation is to avoid the word entirely. Trying to use it scientifically leads to confusion. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_revolution
bsoles 2mo ago
If Göbekli Tepe doesn't count as an indication of a civilization, I don't know what does. Requirement for a writing system is an arbitrary condition. A lot of civilizations, especially in that region, have strong oral traditions.
- detourdog 2mo ago
  We have also been oblivious to other culture’s writing systems before. Also would a knotted thread record keeping system count as writing?
  - nephihaha 1mo ago
    The jury is out on quipu. There are very primitive tribes which use some forms of writing, which I would not count as having a civilisation.
- andsoitis 2mo ago
  [flagged]

nephihaha 2mo ago

One of the definitions of civilisation is the building of substantial permanent settlements. Gobekli Tepe does qualify in that sense, as does Chatal Hoyuk. Gobekli Tepe features notable sculptures too.

usrnm 2mo ago

There are very few places on Earth that developed writing completely independently, without any external influence. Far fewer than "civilizations"

AlotOfReading 2mo ago
The parent is just failing to explain a more fully developed concept called the "urban revolution", which classically has 10 characteristics of which writing is one and not all of which need to be present [0]. This entire discussion stems from the fact that the word "civilization" is essentially defined to fit the societies people already consider civilizations. There are technologically, politically, and socially complex societies that aren't "civilizations". My recommendation is to avoid the word entirely. Trying to use it scientifically leads to confusion. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_revolution https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urban_revolution

bsoles 2mo ago

If Göbekli Tepe doesn't count as an indication of a civilization, I don't know what does. Requirement for a writing system is an arbitrary condition. A lot of civilizations, especially in that region, have strong oral traditions.

detourdog 2mo ago
We have also been oblivious to other culture’s writing systems before. Also would a knotted thread record keeping system count as writing?
- nephihaha 1mo ago
  The jury is out on quipu. There are very primitive tribes which use some forms of writing, which I would not count as having a civilisation.
andsoitis 2mo ago
[flagged]