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From approx 2008 on Russia has conducted operations that are in no way ideological but have only the goal to destabilize western nations. Supporting extremist p

From approx 2008 on Russia has conducted operations that are in no way ideological but have only the goal to destabilize western nations. Supporting extremist parties of all orientations, magnifying events in their propaganda to maximize discord without any ideological consistency. They also quite frequently kill people on western soil. Sometimes using radioactive and chemical weapons. Please elaborate when the west has done the same in Russia.

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
Just stop. The moral altitude you claim is a dire fallacy. You don’t speak Russian, or else you would already know the answer. And I’m pretty sure you know full well that any examples given to answer your question in earnest will simply be dismissed as “Russian propaganda” - just as the Russians dismiss Western claims as propaganda, or even ‘justifiable, given Western hostilities’ - but there is a long list of actions against Russia by western powers with the intention of destabilizing Russian society, which, if you make the effort to inform yourself by reaching outside your bubble, you can see for yourself. Russians can make just as many claims as Westerners can, and the only difference is which side one is invested in: thats what you’ll believe. No matter what. But, just to give you some hints as to what ‘the other side’ consider a valid response to your query, I asked some actual Russians what they would respond, and here’s the list: - Assassinations: Daria Dugina, Igor Kirilov, Mikail Shatsky, (and BTW, Russians can quite confidently claim that the Salisbury Novichok incident was a false flag intended to harm Russian standing in the world - “Russians aren’t the only ones who synthesized Novichok…”) - Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty: 100% anti-Russian propaganda, - The blatant censorship of RT in Western markets (although the Russians still have access to BBC and CNN, which they also view as state-sponsored anti-Russian propaganda organs), - Emphasis on high military casualties (sometimes highlighting disproportionate impact on ethnic minorities from poorer regions), - Coverage of economic costs, elite corruption, and contrasts between official narratives and frontline realities, - Support for (or amplification of) Russian opposition voices in exile and independent media, - The "UMBRAGE" Component of Vault 7, described by Wikileaks as an offensive Western intelligence/propaganda operation against Russia, These operations are reciprocal. Both sides do it to each other, and you are foolish to deny it. Otherwise .. I hope you learn to speak Russian and will start paying better attention to ‘the other side’, because that’s the only way you’ll get an answer to your question, legitimately. And even then, I doubt you’ll “believe it”, since we in the West live in a very, very tightly controlled propaganda bubble, to the tune of billions of dollars a year, which absolutely prevents any such sympathies for Russia from being expressed. Our bubble is just like the Russian bubble, only its not in Russian.
- Paradigma11 2mo ago
  One main difference is that those examples you brought up are ideological propaganda. RFE/RL try to amplify their message and yes, the current Russian regime is very antithetical to that message. Russian propaganda is not ideological, it tries to maximize the damage to western nations and uses whatever political and ideological message that will achieve that. They have been doing that for decades, which is something a hostile nation does. As for the assassinations, those are wartime actions by Ukraine. Not sure how they are supposed to fit into our discussion. As for Salisbury, so you found the story of these fitness supplement salesmen convincing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okrdqM6hNrI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okrdqM6hNrI It has been my impression that not even Russia tries to push that narrative any more.
  - MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
    Ideology? Yes, pure hatred is ideological - no matter which side of the dialectic you choose to align yourself. “American propaganda is not ideological, it tries to maximize the damage to Russia and uses whatever political and ideological message that will achieve that.” Huh, what do you know, that can be “true” as well. And the US and its allies have been hostile towards Russia - actually, for centuries now. I don’t find anything about Salisbury convincing - not the British investigations, nor the Russian ones. And the reason for that is, the evidence presented never holds up in an open, public, liberal democratic court of law - instead, the ideological propaganda that “Russians are assholes because they kill people” is propagated in the court of public opinion, which is as vicious and banal as you can possibly imagine (or else we wouldn’t need courts in the first place), no matter whether you attempt to argue from the Russian or Western perspective. Besides which, the moral altitude claimed “against” Russia by the West is simply a fallacy - you think we don’t murder people extrajudicially? I’ve got an ideological point for you: dropping one bomb every 15 minutes for 26 years, mostly on innocent children, women, and men is wrong and should be stopped. Any state which attempts to stop that, gets my vote - but it is not going to be stopped by any state. It is going to be stopped by the criminal states’ citizen body, which is - as we see bright and clear today - completely and utterly distracted by the hatespew against the citizens of other states, intentionally, by the people dropping the bombs - because they also own and control the means by which ideological propaganda such as “hate Russia” or “hate the West” is propagated, and they use it to expand the market for their weapons production... In short, you’re no better than any “Russian”, and neither am I. Our nations are murderous, criminal enterprises which produce mass murder at far, far greater scales than anything a trash can in Salisbury can produce.

MomsAVoxell 2mo ago

Just stop. The moral altitude you claim is a dire fallacy. You don’t speak Russian, or else you would already know the answer. And I’m pretty sure you know full well that any examples given to answer your question in earnest will simply be dismissed as “Russian propaganda” - just as the Russians dismiss Western claims as propaganda, or even ‘justifiable, given Western hostilities’ - but there is a long list of actions against Russia by western powers with the intention of destabilizing Russian society, which, if you make the effort to inform yourself by reaching outside your bubble, you can see for yourself. Russians can make just as many claims as Westerners can, and the only difference is which side one is invested in: thats what you’ll believe. No matter what. But, just to give you some hints as to what ‘the other side’ consider a valid response to your query, I asked some actual Russians what they would respond, and here’s the list: - Assassinations: Daria Dugina, Igor Kirilov, Mikail Shatsky, (and BTW, Russians can quite confidently claim that the Salisbury Novichok incident was a false flag intended to harm Russian standing in the world - “Russians aren’t the only ones who synthesized Novichok…”) - Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty: 100% anti-Russian propaganda, - The blatant censorship of RT in Western markets (although the Russians still have access to BBC and CNN, which they also view as state-sponsored anti-Russian propaganda organs), - Emphasis on high military casualties (sometimes highlighting disproportionate impact on ethnic minorities from poorer regions), - Coverage of economic costs, elite corruption, and contrasts between official narratives and frontline realities, - Support for (or amplification of) Russian opposition voices in exile and independent media, - The "UMBRAGE" Component of Vault 7, described by Wikileaks as an offensive Western intelligence/propaganda operation against Russia, These operations are reciprocal. Both sides do it to each other, and you are foolish to deny it. Otherwise .. I hope you learn to speak Russian and will start paying better attention to ‘the other side’, because that’s the only way you’ll get an answer to your question, legitimately. And even then, I doubt you’ll “believe it”, since we in the West live in a very, very tightly controlled propaganda bubble, to the tune of billions of dollars a year, which absolutely prevents any such sympathies for Russia from being expressed. Our bubble is just like the Russian bubble, only its not in Russian.

Paradigma11 2mo ago
One main difference is that those examples you brought up are ideological propaganda. RFE/RL try to amplify their message and yes, the current Russian regime is very antithetical to that message. Russian propaganda is not ideological, it tries to maximize the damage to western nations and uses whatever political and ideological message that will achieve that. They have been doing that for decades, which is something a hostile nation does. As for the assassinations, those are wartime actions by Ukraine. Not sure how they are supposed to fit into our discussion. As for Salisbury, so you found the story of these fitness supplement salesmen convincing?: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okrdqM6hNrI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okrdqM6hNrI It has been my impression that not even Russia tries to push that narrative any more.
- MomsAVoxell 2mo ago
  Ideology? Yes, pure hatred is ideological - no matter which side of the dialectic you choose to align yourself. “American propaganda is not ideological, it tries to maximize the damage to Russia and uses whatever political and ideological message that will achieve that.” Huh, what do you know, that can be “true” as well. And the US and its allies have been hostile towards Russia - actually, for centuries now. I don’t find anything about Salisbury convincing - not the British investigations, nor the Russian ones. And the reason for that is, the evidence presented never holds up in an open, public, liberal democratic court of law - instead, the ideological propaganda that “Russians are assholes because they kill people” is propagated in the court of public opinion, which is as vicious and banal as you can possibly imagine (or else we wouldn’t need courts in the first place), no matter whether you attempt to argue from the Russian or Western perspective. Besides which, the moral altitude claimed “against” Russia by the West is simply a fallacy - you think we don’t murder people extrajudicially? I’ve got an ideological point for you: dropping one bomb every 15 minutes for 26 years, mostly on innocent children, women, and men is wrong and should be stopped. Any state which attempts to stop that, gets my vote - but it is not going to be stopped by any state. It is going to be stopped by the criminal states’ citizen body, which is - as we see bright and clear today - completely and utterly distracted by the hatespew against the citizens of other states, intentionally, by the people dropping the bombs - because they also own and control the means by which ideological propaganda such as “hate Russia” or “hate the West” is propagated, and they use it to expand the market for their weapons production... In short, you’re no better than any “Russian”, and neither am I. Our nations are murderous, criminal enterprises which produce mass murder at far, far greater scales than anything a trash can in Salisbury can produce.