7 ms·

Or a one state solution with a Palestinian leader.

by vcryan 2mo ago

starik36 2mo ago
Apparently just one genocide against the Jews per 100 years simply isn't enough for you.
- handoflixue 2mo ago
  If you think having a particular ethnicity in charge is equivalent to endorsing genocide, you miiiiiight be a little bit racist.
  - jameshilliard 2mo ago
    > If you think having a particular ethnicity in charge is equivalent to endorsing genocide, you miiiiiight be a little bit racist. The democratically elected government of the Palestinians in Gaza(Hamas) has for a long time quite openly advocated for effectively genocide Jews/Israeli's, it's not racist to simply believe that Hamas is telling the truth in regards to what their end goals are.
    - dragonwriter 2mo ago
      > The democratically elected government of the Palestinians in Gaza There's no such thing: the separate authority in Gaza was produced by Israeli military isolation of the separate parts of Palestine nominally administered by the PA, and how that facilitated Hamas local victory there in the intra-Palestinian civil war against the central government. Also, the elections that were won by Hamas candidates before that were before most currently living Gazans were born, much less eligible to vote, and subsequent elections have not been held because Israel blocked the all-Palestine elections agreed to by Hamas and Fatah, so even if the “government of Palestinians in Gaza” were simply a direct result of those elections, which it is not, it would hardly be the “democratically elected” by those currently governed.
      - jameshilliard 2mo ago
        > There's no such thing: the separate authority in Gaza was produced by Israeli military isolation of the separate parts of Palestine nominally administered by the PA, and how that facilitated Hamas local victory there in the intra-Palestinian civil war against the central government. The election that brought Hamas to power in Gaza was widely considered to be free and fair.[0] > Also, the elections that were won by Hamas candidates before that were before most currently living Gazans were born, much less eligible to vote, and subsequent elections have not been held because Israel blocked the all-Palestine elections agreed to by Hamas and Fatah, so even if the “government of Palestinians in Gaza” were simply a direct result of those elections, which it is not, it would hardly be the “democratically elected” by those currently governed. And yet polling indicates if another vote was held Hamas would likely still win, in both Gaza and the West Bank, so it's essentially a moot point. It's not just Israel that has blocked elections, Fatah has also not wanted elections because they know they would lose. The problem is that Palestinians have in reality largely supported extremists far more than moderates, that may change but reducing Palestinian support for extremism is ultimately what needs to change for there to be a chance at having some long term peace agreement. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election#Independent_Observer_reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...
        watutalkinbout 2mo ago
        A lot of Jews in the Polish Ghettos were pretty extremist.
        jameshilliard 2mo ago
        > A lot of Jews in the Polish Ghettos were pretty extremist. The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were not going around killing German civilians.
        watutalkinbout 2mo ago
        Warsaw Ghetto was sealed off in November 1940 by a wall more than 10 feet high, with barbed wire and guarded gates. German authorities specifically used the guards to prevent movement between the ghetto and the rest of Warsaw. Sounds familiar - as I said, history rhymes.
    - watutalkinbout 2mo ago
      I'm not sure what meaning you can ascribe to this kind of statement, because whilst it is factually true in isolation, it also omits so much information it's almost meaningless. There's plenty of evidence that the Israeli government is composed of people with a similar outlook, just with a power imbalance that affords them the opportunity to be more politically sophisticated. History rhymes - I'm pretty sure that Jews in the Polish Ghetto had pretty negative views about the people detaining them there. Do you hold that against them?
      - jameshilliard 2mo ago
        > There's plenty of evidence that the Israeli government is composed of people with a similar outlook, just with a power imbalance that affords them the opportunity to be more politically sophisticated. Israel does have some problems with extremists getting elected but that's partially due to the proportional representation system making it easier for extremists to get elected without widespread support from the population. > I'm pretty sure that Jews in the Polish Ghetto had pretty negative views about the people detaining them there. Do you hold that against them? Were the Jews in the Polish Ghetto terrorizing/murdering random German civilians? I'm sure they had a very negative view of the Nazi's but it's not a particularly comparable situation as the Jews were being exterminated regardless of their actions.
        watutalkinbout 2mo ago
        Gazans are being exterminated regardless of their actions. The Warsaw ghettos didn't exist for very long. People are people, treat them the same way and you'll probably get similar results. Of course, in this case both sides have magical thinking involved that gives them a divine blessing, so that changes things somewhat and makes it harder to reason with them. Obviously the parallel I've drawn is extremely provocative. The Nazis started with a belief of dehumanism and acted on it. In the case of Israelis and Palestinians it's just the direction of travel over decades, but they look the same in many ways for a reason.
        jameshilliard 2mo ago
  - frollogaston 2mo ago
    What do you think would happen in that scenario, if not at least the inverse direction of what's happening now?
frollogaston 2mo ago
The only solution that has ever worked in that region was 0-state. ie they were governed by some larger empire. Some call the US the empire this time, but it's not.
HDThoreaun 2mo ago
Why would israelis ever agree to give up control of their government? They hold all the cards here, any solution will have to be one that favors israel because the status quo is just fine for them
- frollogaston 2mo ago
  Not if the US backs out or otherwise changes its stance
  - HDThoreaun 2mo ago
    If the US backs out the hard liners gain even more control, ally with china, and begin their final solution to the palestinian problem. Israelis would go north korea before a one state solution.
    - frollogaston 2mo ago
      That's the thing though, no other world power would sign up for this kind of relationship with Israel. We're giving them protection and paying them for it too. There's a reason Russia and China don't go head to head with us over the Mid East, but Russia will do it in Ukraine.
      - HDThoreaun 1mo ago
        > no other world power would sign up for this kind of relationship with Israel Which is exactly why they'll feel like a cornered animal and become even more violent. Israel has a competent defense industry, they do not need foreign aid to run their military. What they need is foreign aid in order to semi humanely run their military at a price theyre happy with. Foreign aid pulling out wont end their military, itll just make it less humane and even more reckless.
        manyaoman 1mo ago
        Got to admire your imagination coming up with that piece of rubbish. Running a country humanely is free in short term and exponentially profitable in long term. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most democratic countries also tend to be the wealthiest.

Or a one state solution with a Palestinian leader.

by vcryan 2mo ago

Or a one state solution with a Palestinian leader.

starik36 2mo ago

Apparently just one genocide against the Jews per 100 years simply isn't enough for you.

handoflixue 2mo ago
If you think having a particular ethnicity in charge is equivalent to endorsing genocide, you miiiiiight be a little bit racist.
- jameshilliard 2mo ago
  > If you think having a particular ethnicity in charge is equivalent to endorsing genocide, you miiiiiight be a little bit racist. The democratically elected government of the Palestinians in Gaza(Hamas) has for a long time quite openly advocated for effectively genocide Jews/Israeli's, it's not racist to simply believe that Hamas is telling the truth in regards to what their end goals are.
  - dragonwriter 2mo ago
    > The democratically elected government of the Palestinians in Gaza There's no such thing: the separate authority in Gaza was produced by Israeli military isolation of the separate parts of Palestine nominally administered by the PA, and how that facilitated Hamas local victory there in the intra-Palestinian civil war against the central government. Also, the elections that were won by Hamas candidates before that were before most currently living Gazans were born, much less eligible to vote, and subsequent elections have not been held because Israel blocked the all-Palestine elections agreed to by Hamas and Fatah, so even if the “government of Palestinians in Gaza” were simply a direct result of those elections, which it is not, it would hardly be the “democratically elected” by those currently governed.
    - jameshilliard 2mo ago
      > There's no such thing: the separate authority in Gaza was produced by Israeli military isolation of the separate parts of Palestine nominally administered by the PA, and how that facilitated Hamas local victory there in the intra-Palestinian civil war against the central government. The election that brought Hamas to power in Gaza was widely considered to be free and fair.[0] > Also, the elections that were won by Hamas candidates before that were before most currently living Gazans were born, much less eligible to vote, and subsequent elections have not been held because Israel blocked the all-Palestine elections agreed to by Hamas and Fatah, so even if the “government of Palestinians in Gaza” were simply a direct result of those elections, which it is not, it would hardly be the “democratically elected” by those currently governed. And yet polling indicates if another vote was held Hamas would likely still win, in both Gaza and the West Bank, so it's essentially a moot point. It's not just Israel that has blocked elections, Fatah has also not wanted elections because they know they would lose. The problem is that Palestinians have in reality largely supported extremists far more than moderates, that may change but reducing Palestinian support for extremism is ultimately what needs to change for there to be a chance at having some long term peace agreement. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_election#Independent_Observer_reactions https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Palestinian_legislative_e...
      - watutalkinbout 2mo ago
        A lot of Jews in the Polish Ghettos were pretty extremist.
        jameshilliard 2mo ago
        > A lot of Jews in the Polish Ghettos were pretty extremist. The Jews in the Warsaw Ghetto Uprising were not going around killing German civilians.
        watutalkinbout 2mo ago
        Warsaw Ghetto was sealed off in November 1940 by a wall more than 10 feet high, with barbed wire and guarded gates. German authorities specifically used the guards to prevent movement between the ghetto and the rest of Warsaw. Sounds familiar - as I said, history rhymes.
  - watutalkinbout 2mo ago
    I'm not sure what meaning you can ascribe to this kind of statement, because whilst it is factually true in isolation, it also omits so much information it's almost meaningless. There's plenty of evidence that the Israeli government is composed of people with a similar outlook, just with a power imbalance that affords them the opportunity to be more politically sophisticated. History rhymes - I'm pretty sure that Jews in the Polish Ghetto had pretty negative views about the people detaining them there. Do you hold that against them?
    - jameshilliard 2mo ago
      > There's plenty of evidence that the Israeli government is composed of people with a similar outlook, just with a power imbalance that affords them the opportunity to be more politically sophisticated. Israel does have some problems with extremists getting elected but that's partially due to the proportional representation system making it easier for extremists to get elected without widespread support from the population. > I'm pretty sure that Jews in the Polish Ghetto had pretty negative views about the people detaining them there. Do you hold that against them? Were the Jews in the Polish Ghetto terrorizing/murdering random German civilians? I'm sure they had a very negative view of the Nazi's but it's not a particularly comparable situation as the Jews were being exterminated regardless of their actions.
      - watutalkinbout 2mo ago
        Gazans are being exterminated regardless of their actions. The Warsaw ghettos didn't exist for very long. People are people, treat them the same way and you'll probably get similar results. Of course, in this case both sides have magical thinking involved that gives them a divine blessing, so that changes things somewhat and makes it harder to reason with them. Obviously the parallel I've drawn is extremely provocative. The Nazis started with a belief of dehumanism and acted on it. In the case of Israelis and Palestinians it's just the direction of travel over decades, but they look the same in many ways for a reason.
        jameshilliard 2mo ago
- frollogaston 2mo ago
  What do you think would happen in that scenario, if not at least the inverse direction of what's happening now?

frollogaston 2mo ago

The only solution that has ever worked in that region was 0-state. ie they were governed by some larger empire. Some call the US the empire this time, but it's not.

HDThoreaun 2mo ago

Why would israelis ever agree to give up control of their government? They hold all the cards here, any solution will have to be one that favors israel because the status quo is just fine for them

frollogaston 2mo ago
Not if the US backs out or otherwise changes its stance
- HDThoreaun 2mo ago
  If the US backs out the hard liners gain even more control, ally with china, and begin their final solution to the palestinian problem. Israelis would go north korea before a one state solution.
  - frollogaston 2mo ago
    That's the thing though, no other world power would sign up for this kind of relationship with Israel. We're giving them protection and paying them for it too. There's a reason Russia and China don't go head to head with us over the Mid East, but Russia will do it in Ukraine.
    - HDThoreaun 1mo ago
      > no other world power would sign up for this kind of relationship with Israel Which is exactly why they'll feel like a cornered animal and become even more violent. Israel has a competent defense industry, they do not need foreign aid to run their military. What they need is foreign aid in order to semi humanely run their military at a price theyre happy with. Foreign aid pulling out wont end their military, itll just make it less humane and even more reckless.
      - manyaoman 1mo ago
        Got to admire your imagination coming up with that piece of rubbish. Running a country humanely is free in short term and exponentially profitable in long term. I don't think it's a coincidence that the most democratic countries also tend to be the wealthiest.