4 ms·

I don't view Ben Gvir's rise to a position of powers as a product of democracy, as much of a product of artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apar

by datsci_est_2015 2mo ago

I don't view Ben Gvir's rise to a position of powers as a product of democracy, as much of a product of artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. More directly, his rise to power is a direct result of the financial support of Israeli settlements over the past century which could not have existed in the absence of such financial support: settlers were paid to live in a specific strategic locations, in a specific way that would further the Zionist mission (first exclusionary, later apartheid). Any power structure will be twisted and corrupted in the presence of these state systems to give people like Ben Gvir (or Stephen Miller, if you'd like) the platform and power to unleash their naked evil on the world. This is not unique to democracy. I think it's upon us - all of humanity - to denounce artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. They are founded on principles that are misanthropic, asocial, and unhumanitarian. They have always led to an immense amount of suffering. But they are not inevitable, termination mode of democracy.

giov4 2mo ago
illuminating thanks for sharing this point of view. funny that recently I came to a similar conclusion regarding power structures being corrupted anyway at the end, independently from the starting political form, is like we humans tend to be corrupt and violent at the end. how many "democracies" are currently at war? or are doing violent covert or non covert operations/strategies? who controls that? "I think it's upon us - all of humanity - to denounce artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. They are founded on principles that are misanthropic, asocial, and unhumanitarian. They have always led to an immense amount of suffering. But they are not inevitable, termination mode of democracy." this is gold, we can close the conversation here :)
- lyu07282 2mo ago
  > we humans tend to be corrupt and violent at the end On a big picture "we" the west are perpetuating a type of colonialism. On the invisible "other side" in the global south, the outlook on a statement like "every conceivable political system always leads to corruption and violence" is quite different, better things are imaginable to them because it means liberation, freedom from oppressive forces, and so on. In the west it is the opposite, its unimaginable because an end to the oppressive forces means "we", means history literally ends, it's circular it's why the west views itself as the peak of civilization nothing that came before or after is even conceivably better than us.
jameshilliard 2mo ago
> I don't view Ben Gvir's rise to a position of powers as a product of democracy, as much of a product of artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. From my understanding Ben Gvir(who has very little overall support in Israel from the population at large) getting elected is more of a consequence of Israel having nationwide proportional representation which allows extremists to get elected. Ben Gvir then managed to become a minister due to Netanyahu having insufficient support from moderates to form a coalition without having to work with extremists like Ben Gvir. > I think it's upon us - all of humanity - to denounce artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. So most states in the middle east should be dissolved? It's not clear what you're actually advocating for in practice. > They are founded on principles that are misanthropic, asocial, and unhumanitarian. They have always led to an immense amount of suffering. So we should dissolve most states including the United States due to flawed founding principals?
- datsci_est_2015 2mo ago
  > From my understanding Ben Gvir(who has very little overall support in Israel from the population at large) getting elected is more of a consequence of Israel having nationwide proportional representation which allows extremists to get elected. The existence of the support for those extremists has the same root cause that I stated in my original message: the artificial and strategic neocolonial state propped up by outside financial support with the expressed goal of establishing an ethnostate that eventually and inevitably led to apartheid. > So most states in the middle east should be dissolved? It's not clear what you're actually advocating for in practice. You can't unscramble an egg. Dissolution of dysfunctional but non-anarchic states is obviously a hyperbolic solution that I think you're aware brings nothing to the table as a suggestion. What I'm advocating for in practice is quite clear in my original post, but I'll state it again: we need to denounce artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. Much in the same way that we denounce war crimes, sex trafficking, and slavery. > So we should dissolve most states including the United States due to flawed founding principals? Again, you're bringing nothing to the table here with hyperbole. But in a way, yes, during Reconstruction a more heavy-handed approach should have been used to eliminate with great fury and prejudice the cultural desire for an apartheid state in the South, and maybe prevented or softened 150 years of suffering for black people and their descendants.

giov4 2mo ago

illuminating thanks for sharing this point of view. funny that recently I came to a similar conclusion regarding power structures being corrupted anyway at the end, independently from the starting political form, is like we humans tend to be corrupt and violent at the end. how many "democracies" are currently at war? or are doing violent covert or non covert operations/strategies? who controls that? "I think it's upon us - all of humanity - to denounce artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. They are founded on principles that are misanthropic, asocial, and unhumanitarian. They have always led to an immense amount of suffering. But they are not inevitable, termination mode of democracy." this is gold, we can close the conversation here :)

lyu07282 2mo ago
> we humans tend to be corrupt and violent at the end On a big picture "we" the west are perpetuating a type of colonialism. On the invisible "other side" in the global south, the outlook on a statement like "every conceivable political system always leads to corruption and violence" is quite different, better things are imaginable to them because it means liberation, freedom from oppressive forces, and so on. In the west it is the opposite, its unimaginable because an end to the oppressive forces means "we", means history literally ends, it's circular it's why the west views itself as the peak of civilization nothing that came before or after is even conceivably better than us.

jameshilliard 2mo ago

> I don't view Ben Gvir's rise to a position of powers as a product of democracy, as much of a product of artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. From my understanding Ben Gvir(who has very little overall support in Israel from the population at large) getting elected is more of a consequence of Israel having nationwide proportional representation which allows extremists to get elected. Ben Gvir then managed to become a minister due to Netanyahu having insufficient support from moderates to form a coalition without having to work with extremists like Ben Gvir. > I think it's upon us - all of humanity - to denounce artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. So most states in the middle east should be dissolved? It's not clear what you're actually advocating for in practice. > They are founded on principles that are misanthropic, asocial, and unhumanitarian. They have always led to an immense amount of suffering. So we should dissolve most states including the United States due to flawed founding principals?

datsci_est_2015 2mo ago
> From my understanding Ben Gvir(who has very little overall support in Israel from the population at large) getting elected is more of a consequence of Israel having nationwide proportional representation which allows extremists to get elected. The existence of the support for those extremists has the same root cause that I stated in my original message: the artificial and strategic neocolonial state propped up by outside financial support with the expressed goal of establishing an ethnostate that eventually and inevitably led to apartheid. > So most states in the middle east should be dissolved? It's not clear what you're actually advocating for in practice. You can't unscramble an egg. Dissolution of dysfunctional but non-anarchic states is obviously a hyperbolic solution that I think you're aware brings nothing to the table as a suggestion. What I'm advocating for in practice is quite clear in my original post, but I'll state it again: we need to denounce artificial states, neocolonialism, ethnostates, and apartheid. Much in the same way that we denounce war crimes, sex trafficking, and slavery. > So we should dissolve most states including the United States due to flawed founding principals? Again, you're bringing nothing to the table here with hyperbole. But in a way, yes, during Reconstruction a more heavy-handed approach should have been used to eliminate with great fury and prejudice the cultural desire for an apartheid state in the South, and maybe prevented or softened 150 years of suffering for black people and their descendants.