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Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for 3,500 years. Many more returned home after the Holocaust and rebuilt cities, created new ones like Tel Aviv,

by judah 2mo ago

Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for 3,500 years. Many more returned home after the Holocaust and rebuilt cities, created new ones like Tel Aviv, turned sand into productive land.

DiogenesKynikos 2mo ago
By "continuous presence," you mean that a tiny number of Jews lived there. The vast majority of Jews lived elsewhere, and the vast majority of the local population was not Jewish. I'm sorry, but 5% of the population of Palestine being Jewish does not give one the right to take over the country, not to mention the fact that the longstanding Jewish population of Palestine was hostile to Zionism. It was a European political movement.
- judah 1mo ago
  If continuous presence in a land doesn't define a people's right to exist as a nation, you know what does? The ability to create and defend borders. Israel has that. Israel was invaded on the day it declared independence on May 14th, 1948. Invaded by 9 Arab nations and armies[0], Israel not only successfully defended itself and won the war, it even gained territory from the aggressors. Israel has a right to exist because its people have had a continuous presence in that land going back longer than the British have been in London, longer than the French have been in Paris. Israel has a right to exist because it defends its people and its borders and has the approval of the United Nations, UN Resolution 181. The only people who deny this right of Jews to return to their native homeland? Bonafide neo-Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, KKK members, and other antisemites. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
  - DiogenesKynikos 1mo ago
    > If continuous presence in a land doesn't define a people's right to exist as a nation, you know what does? You're playing a deliberate sleight of hand here. A tiny number of Jews lived as a small minority in Palestine, therefore Jews were always there, therefore European Jews have the right to turn Palestine into a Jewish state. The "continuous presence" was tiny, and had nothing to do with the millions of Jews who lived in Europe - the people who later founded Israel. > Israel has that. Israel was invaded on the day it declared independence on May 14th, 1948. Invaded by 9 Arab nations and armies, Israel not only successfully defended itself and won the war, it even gained territory from the aggressors. The Zionist paramilitary groups had already been waging war against the Palestinians for 6 months by the time the Arab armies intervened. The Zionists had already driven hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes and conquered much of Palestine. But Israelis like to present this as little old us being attacked by the big mean Arab armies. > The only people who deny this right of Jews to return to their native homeland? Bonafide neo-Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, KKK members, and other antisemites. You forgot to mention Jewish people. The large majority of Jews were antizionist before WWII, and opposition to Zionism has always been a prominent position among Jews. And inversely, many of the strongest proponents of Zionism have always been antisemites (for example, right-wing Christians in the US today). Imagine if in the year 3600 AD, an African American political movement were to start saying that Africa is their true homeland and that they have the right to take over Ghana and to turn it into their own state. It would be absurd, and the Ghanaians would fight it tooth and nail. Yet here you are saying that Palestine was the true homeland of Albert Einstein and Sigmund Freud, and that European Jews had a 2000-year-old right to take over Palestine, regardless of what the people who lived there had to think about it.
    - throw4986327 1mo ago
      Albert Einstein legally traveled to British Mandate Palestine in 1923 to help set up the Hebrew University - on land that was legally purchased. While some Arabs (and Jews) were displaced during the War of independence, most of Israel’s cities are built on land that was legally purchased, and the vast majority of Israelis immigrated legally. Making it sound like all of the land was stolen because some Jews immigrated from Europe is like saying that Muslim migrants are stealing European land.
      - DiogenesKynikos 1mo ago
        > Albert Einstein legally traveled to British Mandate Palestine in 1923 You're claiming that visiting once made him native to Palestine? He was a German. That was his native language, his culture, the world he grew up in. > Making it sound like all of the land was stolen because some Jews immigrated from Europe is like saying that Muslim migrants are stealing European land. Have Muslim immigrants to Europe established their own country through the mass expulsion of the pre-existing European population? The Zionists weren't just immigrants to Palestine. They openly declared that their goal was to turn Palestine into their own country. > most of Israel’s cities are built on land that was legally purchased This is simply untrue. The vast majority of what became Israel was conquered, and the local population was expelled. Haifa, Jaffa, Nazareth, Ramle, Lod, Be'er Sheva, Ashdod - these were all Arab cities that Israel conquered. > the vast majority of Israelis immigrated legally They arrived under British rule, when the native population of Palestine had virtually no say in its own governance. The native population deeply resented the British promising Palestine to a foreign people, and allowing them to come in and build up their own settlements and quasi-governmental institutions. The Palestinians knew exactly what the intentions of the Zionist movement were, and they obviously opposed it, as any people in their situation would have done. So yes, much of the Zionist immigration was "legal" according to the British, but the British were illegitimate colonial occupiers who were pursuing a policy that was almost universally opposed by the native population.
        throw4986327 1mo ago
        Looking at the largest population centers in Israel: Jerusalem (pop. 1M): was 54% Jewish in 1922 and is 59% Jewish now. Jewish purchase and development of land there predates the British Mandate. Tel Aviv (pop. 400k) - excluding Jaffa (pop. 50k): Pro-Palestinians like to conflate it with Jaffa because the two municipalities merged. But the vast majority of it is a city built on sand dunes purchased by Jews starting in the Ottoman era. Petah Tikva, Rishon LeZion, Netanya, Bnei Brak (1M): Jewish cities built by Jews on land purchased legally. Haifa (pop. 300k): was 54% Jewish in 1945, it’s 72% Jewish now. The population of Nazareth is almost 100% Arab. Ashdod was built on sand dunes 6 kilometres north of the town of Isdud, which was depopulated in 1948. The ruins of Isdud are still standing to the south of Ashdod. We can acknowledge that some Arabs were forced out of some towns during the war - the Arab armies forced out every single Jew from the areas they conquered during the same war. However, the core of the conflict is the Arab side insisting that Jews have no right to any land between the river and the sea simply because of who they are. You think that Jews of European heritage have some fundamental un-right to live in Petah Tikva? Many Europeans and Americans oppose the immigration policies of their governments. Can they claim in 100 years time that the migrations were illegal?
- throw4986327 1mo ago
  In the 1922 British census of Jerusalem, Jews were a majority of the population.
colordrops 2mo ago
You are either extremely ignorant or a cynical sociopath only out to serve your own interests. You spout old stereotypical hasbara that no one falls for anymore because the genocide has led everyone to be educated on the history of the region.
- judah 1mo ago
  History. Jews have lived in Israel for 3,500 years. They were forced out numerous times by numerous conquerors -- including the Islamic conquest of the 8th century -- but each time, Jews returned. And there is no genocide taking place, just a war Hamas started and lost. The Gazan population has already rebounded since Hamas started the war in 2023. For comparison with a real genocide, the global Jewish population today has still not rebounded to pre-1939 levels[0]. [0]: https://factually.co/fact-checks/history/jewish-population-before-and-after-holocaust-e4077d https://factually.co/fact-checks/history/jewish-population-b...
  - colordrops 1mo ago
    You're at least 3 years behind on the hasbara propaganda. Please check in with the local chapter, there are much more effective narratives now.
    - judah 1mo ago
      > "you're behind on your propaganda" Genuine dialog requires a willingness to engage with others' arguments, assess evidence and offer counterpoints. That you dismiss the well-documented history and anthropology of the Jewish people as mere propaganda explains your worldview quite well.
      - colordrops 1mo ago
        I don't engage with bad faith propagandists. There's no debate to be had. You have an unshakable agenda.

by judah 2mo ago

Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for 3,500 years. Many more returned home after the Holocaust and rebuilt cities, created new ones like Tel Aviv, turned sand into productive land.

DiogenesKynikos 2mo ago

By "continuous presence," you mean that a tiny number of Jews lived there. The vast majority of Jews lived elsewhere, and the vast majority of the local population was not Jewish. I'm sorry, but 5% of the population of Palestine being Jewish does not give one the right to take over the country, not to mention the fact that the longstanding Jewish population of Palestine was hostile to Zionism. It was a European political movement.

judah 1mo ago
If continuous presence in a land doesn't define a people's right to exist as a nation, you know what does? The ability to create and defend borders. Israel has that. Israel was invaded on the day it declared independence on May 14th, 1948. Invaded by 9 Arab nations and armies[0], Israel not only successfully defended itself and won the war, it even gained territory from the aggressors. Israel has a right to exist because its people have had a continuous presence in that land going back longer than the British have been in London, longer than the French have been in Paris. Israel has a right to exist because it defends its people and its borders and has the approval of the United Nations, UN Resolution 181. The only people who deny this right of Jews to return to their native homeland? Bonafide neo-Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, KKK members, and other antisemites. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
- DiogenesKynikos 1mo ago
  > If continuous presence in a land doesn't define a people's right to exist as a nation, you know what does? You're playing a deliberate sleight of hand here. A tiny number of Jews lived as a small minority in Palestine, therefore Jews were always there, therefore European Jews have the right to turn Palestine into a Jewish state. The "continuous presence" was tiny, and had nothing to do with the millions of Jews who lived in Europe - the people who later founded Israel. > Israel has that. Israel was invaded on the day it declared independence on May 14th, 1948. Invaded by 9 Arab nations and armies, Israel not only successfully defended itself and won the war, it even gained territory from the aggressors. The Zionist paramilitary groups had already been waging war against the Palestinians for 6 months by the time the Arab armies intervened. The Zionists had already driven hundreds of thousands of Palestinians out of their homes and conquered much of Palestine. But Israelis like to present this as little old us being attacked by the big mean Arab armies. > The only people who deny this right of Jews to return to their native homeland? Bonafide neo-Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, KKK members, and other antisemites. You forgot to mention Jewish people. The large majority of Jews were antizionist before WWII, and opposition to Zionism has always been a prominent position among Jews. And inversely, many of the strongest proponents of Zionism have always been antisemites (for example, right-wing Christians in the US today). Imagine if in the year 3600 AD, an African American political movement were to start saying that Africa is their true homeland and that they have the right to take over Ghana and to turn it into their own state. It would be absurd, and the Ghanaians would fight it tooth and nail. Yet here you are saying that Palestine was the true homeland of Albert Einstein and Sigmund Freud, and that European Jews had a 2000-year-old right to take over Palestine, regardless of what the people who lived there had to think about it.
  - throw4986327 1mo ago
    Albert Einstein legally traveled to British Mandate Palestine in 1923 to help set up the Hebrew University - on land that was legally purchased. While some Arabs (and Jews) were displaced during the War of independence, most of Israel’s cities are built on land that was legally purchased, and the vast majority of Israelis immigrated legally. Making it sound like all of the land was stolen because some Jews immigrated from Europe is like saying that Muslim migrants are stealing European land.
    - DiogenesKynikos 1mo ago
      > Albert Einstein legally traveled to British Mandate Palestine in 1923 You're claiming that visiting once made him native to Palestine? He was a German. That was his native language, his culture, the world he grew up in. > Making it sound like all of the land was stolen because some Jews immigrated from Europe is like saying that Muslim migrants are stealing European land. Have Muslim immigrants to Europe established their own country through the mass expulsion of the pre-existing European population? The Zionists weren't just immigrants to Palestine. They openly declared that their goal was to turn Palestine into their own country. > most of Israel’s cities are built on land that was legally purchased This is simply untrue. The vast majority of what became Israel was conquered, and the local population was expelled. Haifa, Jaffa, Nazareth, Ramle, Lod, Be'er Sheva, Ashdod - these were all Arab cities that Israel conquered. > the vast majority of Israelis immigrated legally They arrived under British rule, when the native population of Palestine had virtually no say in its own governance. The native population deeply resented the British promising Palestine to a foreign people, and allowing them to come in and build up their own settlements and quasi-governmental institutions. The Palestinians knew exactly what the intentions of the Zionist movement were, and they obviously opposed it, as any people in their situation would have done. So yes, much of the Zionist immigration was "legal" according to the British, but the British were illegitimate colonial occupiers who were pursuing a policy that was almost universally opposed by the native population.
      - throw4986327 1mo ago
        Looking at the largest population centers in Israel: Jerusalem (pop. 1M): was 54% Jewish in 1922 and is 59% Jewish now. Jewish purchase and development of land there predates the British Mandate. Tel Aviv (pop. 400k) - excluding Jaffa (pop. 50k): Pro-Palestinians like to conflate it with Jaffa because the two municipalities merged. But the vast majority of it is a city built on sand dunes purchased by Jews starting in the Ottoman era. Petah Tikva, Rishon LeZion, Netanya, Bnei Brak (1M): Jewish cities built by Jews on land purchased legally. Haifa (pop. 300k): was 54% Jewish in 1945, it’s 72% Jewish now. The population of Nazareth is almost 100% Arab. Ashdod was built on sand dunes 6 kilometres north of the town of Isdud, which was depopulated in 1948. The ruins of Isdud are still standing to the south of Ashdod. We can acknowledge that some Arabs were forced out of some towns during the war - the Arab armies forced out every single Jew from the areas they conquered during the same war. However, the core of the conflict is the Arab side insisting that Jews have no right to any land between the river and the sea simply because of who they are. You think that Jews of European heritage have some fundamental un-right to live in Petah Tikva? Many Europeans and Americans oppose the immigration policies of their governments. Can they claim in 100 years time that the migrations were illegal?
throw4986327 1mo ago
In the 1922 British census of Jerusalem, Jews were a majority of the population.

colordrops 2mo ago

You are either extremely ignorant or a cynical sociopath only out to serve your own interests. You spout old stereotypical hasbara that no one falls for anymore because the genocide has led everyone to be educated on the history of the region.

judah 1mo ago
History. Jews have lived in Israel for 3,500 years. They were forced out numerous times by numerous conquerors -- including the Islamic conquest of the 8th century -- but each time, Jews returned. And there is no genocide taking place, just a war Hamas started and lost. The Gazan population has already rebounded since Hamas started the war in 2023. For comparison with a real genocide, the global Jewish population today has still not rebounded to pre-1939 levels[0]. [0]: https://factually.co/fact-checks/history/jewish-population-before-and-after-holocaust-e4077d https://factually.co/fact-checks/history/jewish-population-b...
- colordrops 1mo ago
  You're at least 3 years behind on the hasbara propaganda. Please check in with the local chapter, there are much more effective narratives now.
  - judah 1mo ago
    > "you're behind on your propaganda" Genuine dialog requires a willingness to engage with others' arguments, assess evidence and offer counterpoints. That you dismiss the well-documented history and anthropology of the Jewish people as mere propaganda explains your worldview quite well.
    - colordrops 1mo ago
      I don't engage with bad faith propagandists. There's no debate to be had. You have an unshakable agenda.