6 ms·

Unfortunately it looks like it's not just a issue of missing hardware security features: > Their partnership with Murena along with promoting it themselves wit

by stymaar 2mo ago

Unfortunately it looks like it's not just a issue of missing hardware security features: > Their partnership with Murena along with promoting it themselves with misleading marketing means no possibility of working with us. I want to like GrapheneOS, but the pettiness of its leadership is a real problem for the long term prospect of the project.

hokumguru 2mo ago
Is it pettiness or just sticking to their morals? Murena, as they mentioned, forwards data to OpenAI which is against pretty much everything Graphene stands for.
- krunck 2mo ago
  > Murena, as they mentioned, forwards data to OpenAI which is against pretty much everything Graphene stands for. How? In what way? Source?
  - Telaneo 2mo ago
    https://community.e.foundation/t/voice-to-text-feature-using-open-ai/70509 https://community.e.foundation/t/voice-to-text-feature-using...
    - stymaar 2mo ago
      June 2025 Someone else shared the up to date info about this feature: https://doc.e.foundation/os/apps/voice-to-text https://doc.e.foundation/os/apps/voice-to-text > The earlier Voice to Text was a Premium-only, online feature: it streamed your speech to a third-party AI transcription service through an anonymising proxy, so it required a Murena Workspace Premium subscription and an internet connection. > The new Voice to Text is free, offline and on-device
      - grapheneos 2mo ago
        /e/ has other privacy invasive services which are enabled by default. It gives highly privileged access to Google services which are always active and has user tracking in their update client. /e/ and Murena repeatedly claiming privacy/security hardened devices mainly benefit criminals and falsely claiming they're mainly used by criminals shows what they believe: https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-interview.html https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-intervie... https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 /e/ lacks many crucial standard privacy/security patches and protections: https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603
- oever 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - oever 2mo ago
    In the current version of /e/OS, Voice to Text runs offline. > The earlier Voice to Text was a Premium-only, online feature: it streamed your speech to a third-party AI transcription service [...] The new Voice to Text is free, offline and on-device https://doc.e.foundation/os/apps/voice-to-text https://doc.e.foundation/os/apps/voice-to-text
    - grapheneos 2mo ago
      /e/ has other privacy invasive services which are enabled by default. It gives highly privileged access to Google services which are always active and has user tracking in their update client. /e/ lacks many crucial standard privacy/security patches and protections: https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 /e/ and Murena repeatedly claiming privacy/security hardened devices mainly benefit criminals and falsely claiming they're mainly used by criminals shows what they believe. Here are 2 clear examples: https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-interview.html https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-intervie...
- Contortion 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Cider9986 2mo ago
    And yet GrapheneOS is better at everything that /e/ claims.
    - teekert 2mo ago
      Not at running on sustainably produced, repairable hardware ;) (Wish it was though.)
      - johnsea 2mo ago
        You can buy used Pixels, e.g. from 8a up. I'd claim that this is much more ecological than buying a new Fairphone. I suppose that a Pixel is of a higher quality and has less defects than a Fairphone (which changed the ODM several times). -- This said, I would never use /e/ and Murena as I read too many things I don't like.
        SoftTalker 2mo ago
        [flagged]
        garyfirestorm 2mo ago
        You can always flash and factory reset. I’d bet 99.9% of phones on eBay are by and for general public and not some esoteric zero days in the wild that your comment makes it sound like.
        grapheneos 2mo ago
        Fairphones have very poor updates with rapidly degrading privacy and security over their lifespan. They don't keep up with important updates from the beginning and it gets much worse over time. Updates are very important for sustainability. They're also missing important hardware-based security protections which are needed to protect user data in the real world. They've consistently had major issues such as using publicly available private keys for signing firmware and OS images which they've usually failed to acknowledge. Fairphone 5 and earlier have an end-of-life Linux kernel branch with no movement to updating to a newer one. Fairphone 6 is set to end up in the same situation and it isn't far away. They nearly entirely stop providing Linux privacy and security patches once this happens. Android patches come around half a year late since the Android Security Bulletins themselves are published very late and Fairphone lags 1-2 months or more behind those. There's extremely little information available on Fairphone's ODM partner T2Mobile and their supply chain. The information is mainly a list of suppliers without information on working conditions, pay, environmental protection or nearly anything else. T2Mobile has been their ODM since the Fairphone 4 and earlier information is no longer relevant. They moved away from their original ODM partnership to another with the Fairphone 3 and then to T2Mobile with the Fairphone 4. It's unclear if pay and working conditions are better at T2Mobile for Fairphones than they are for their other products and in what way they're better. It's unclear how it comes to Foxconn for Apple and Google phones. Apple and Google design their devices and handle the firmware and software. Fairphone is using hardware, firmware and software provided by T2Mobile. Fairphone is heavily reliant on what's provided by their ODM. For example, their move to T2Mobile coincided with dropping the 3.5mm audio jack. It's likely not something they wanted to do and many of their supporters were unhappy about it, but it's not really their phone hardware. The phones are essentially T2Mobile devices and there's not a lot of information available. It isn't clear why they switched to T2Mobile with the Fairphone 4 or why the earlier switch to another ODM happened with the Fairphone 3.
- Grombobulous 2mo ago
  Only for one voice to text feature which is completely optional to use and can be replaced with something else. As another commenter mentioned, this voice to text feature is now an offline feature and no longer sends data outside the device. As another note, this Fairphone can be purchased without /e/OS at all. It’s now being sold in the US without Murena being involved at all.
  - grapheneos 2mo ago
    /e/ has other privacy invasive services which are enabled by default. It gives highly privileged access to Google services which are always active and has user tracking in their update client. /e/ and Murena repeatedly claiming privacy/security hardened devices mainly benefit criminals and falsely claiming they're mainly used by criminals shows what they believe: https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-interview.html https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-intervie... https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 /e/ lacks many crucial standard privacy/security patches and protections: https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 Fairphones don't provide a reasonable level of privacy and security without /e/ either: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49354807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49354807
- transdev12 2mo ago
  You can stick to your morals without blowing things out of proportion. “We are the only acceptable way to do things and no tradeoffs are acceptable” is fairly petty. “We have a difference of opinion” isn’t.
- stymaar 2mo ago
  [flagged]
Telaneo 2mo ago
That does not seem like pettiness to me. That seems like a very good reason to not work with someone.
- NetMageSCW 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - Telaneo 2mo ago
    I'm not sure how you can read my comment to imply that.
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - grapheneos 2mo ago
    Fairphones continue to have awful updates, privacy and security. /e/ sending user speech data to OpenAI without consent for years never had anything to do with why Fairphones don't meet our requirements. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49354807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49354807
Cider9986 2mo ago
>I want to like GrapheneOS, but the pettiness of its leadership is a real problem I used to feel a bit similarly. But I've since realized they are one of the very few software projects that actually make sensible privacy and security choices.
- dnautics 2mo ago
  [flagged]
  - grapheneos 2mo ago
    The privacy and security deficiencies of CalyxOS have nothing to do with compromises for usability. GrapheneOS provides much better usability including through having far broader app compatibility. CalyxOS drastically reduces privacy and security compared to the Android Open Source Project. It recently went a whole year without privacy and security patches. They're currently months behind on providing current Pixel driver and firmware updates. It has never been a privacy or security hardened OS but rather the direct opposite.
    - dnautics 2mo ago
      [flagged]
      - grapheneos 2mo ago
        An operating system going a year without providing privacy and security patches is much worse than many options on that basis alone. It's currently months behind on updates. It's hardly the only other option available.
HybridStatAnim8 2mo ago
Refusing to work with organizations or individuals that are detrimental to privacy and security is not petty. Murena does not provide private or secure products and has positioned itself to be against what GrapheneOS provides. A partnership with a company opposed to GrapheneOS and spreading misinformation about it would not be beneficial, and it is not petty to make the smart choice for the benefit of privacy and security.
m4xp 2mo ago
As someone that swapped from fairphone 5 to a pixel9a with graphene. I have to side with graphene. Fairphone is a cool concept, but its a expensive phone, early on i had problem with the speakers and mic. Security updates are extremely slow, support is extremely slow. Their missions is to make a fair phone, but is it fair if you are then forced to buy more ewaste because your phone breaks? Look at pixel software support, its really good, and eu made batteries replacement mandatory.

by stymaar 2mo ago

hokumguru 2mo ago

Is it pettiness or just sticking to their morals? Murena, as they mentioned, forwards data to OpenAI which is against pretty much everything Graphene stands for.

krunck 2mo ago
> Murena, as they mentioned, forwards data to OpenAI which is against pretty much everything Graphene stands for. How? In what way? Source?
- Telaneo 2mo ago
  https://community.e.foundation/t/voice-to-text-feature-using-open-ai/70509 https://community.e.foundation/t/voice-to-text-feature-using...
  - stymaar 2mo ago
    June 2025 Someone else shared the up to date info about this feature: https://doc.e.foundation/os/apps/voice-to-text https://doc.e.foundation/os/apps/voice-to-text > The earlier Voice to Text was a Premium-only, online feature: it streamed your speech to a third-party AI transcription service through an anonymising proxy, so it required a Murena Workspace Premium subscription and an internet connection. > The new Voice to Text is free, offline and on-device
    - grapheneos 2mo ago
      /e/ has other privacy invasive services which are enabled by default. It gives highly privileged access to Google services which are always active and has user tracking in their update client. /e/ and Murena repeatedly claiming privacy/security hardened devices mainly benefit criminals and falsely claiming they're mainly used by criminals shows what they believe: https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-interview.html https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-intervie... https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 /e/ lacks many crucial standard privacy/security patches and protections: https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603
oever 2mo ago
[flagged]
- oever 2mo ago
  In the current version of /e/OS, Voice to Text runs offline. > The earlier Voice to Text was a Premium-only, online feature: it streamed your speech to a third-party AI transcription service [...] The new Voice to Text is free, offline and on-device https://doc.e.foundation/os/apps/voice-to-text https://doc.e.foundation/os/apps/voice-to-text
  - grapheneos 2mo ago
    /e/ has other privacy invasive services which are enabled by default. It gives highly privileged access to Google services which are always active and has user tracking in their update client. /e/ lacks many crucial standard privacy/security patches and protections: https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 /e/ and Murena repeatedly claiming privacy/security hardened devices mainly benefit criminals and falsely claiming they're mainly used by criminals shows what they believe. Here are 2 clear examples: https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-interview.html https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-intervie...
Contortion 2mo ago
[flagged]
- Cider9986 2mo ago
  And yet GrapheneOS is better at everything that /e/ claims.
  - teekert 2mo ago
    Not at running on sustainably produced, repairable hardware ;) (Wish it was though.)
    - johnsea 2mo ago
      You can buy used Pixels, e.g. from 8a up. I'd claim that this is much more ecological than buying a new Fairphone. I suppose that a Pixel is of a higher quality and has less defects than a Fairphone (which changed the ODM several times). -- This said, I would never use /e/ and Murena as I read too many things I don't like.
      - SoftTalker 2mo ago
        [flagged]
        garyfirestorm 2mo ago
        You can always flash and factory reset. I’d bet 99.9% of phones on eBay are by and for general public and not some esoteric zero days in the wild that your comment makes it sound like.
      - grapheneos 2mo ago
        Fairphones have very poor updates with rapidly degrading privacy and security over their lifespan. They don't keep up with important updates from the beginning and it gets much worse over time. Updates are very important for sustainability. They're also missing important hardware-based security protections which are needed to protect user data in the real world. They've consistently had major issues such as using publicly available private keys for signing firmware and OS images which they've usually failed to acknowledge. Fairphone 5 and earlier have an end-of-life Linux kernel branch with no movement to updating to a newer one. Fairphone 6 is set to end up in the same situation and it isn't far away. They nearly entirely stop providing Linux privacy and security patches once this happens. Android patches come around half a year late since the Android Security Bulletins themselves are published very late and Fairphone lags 1-2 months or more behind those. There's extremely little information available on Fairphone's ODM partner T2Mobile and their supply chain. The information is mainly a list of suppliers without information on working conditions, pay, environmental protection or nearly anything else. T2Mobile has been their ODM since the Fairphone 4 and earlier information is no longer relevant. They moved away from their original ODM partnership to another with the Fairphone 3 and then to T2Mobile with the Fairphone 4. It's unclear if pay and working conditions are better at T2Mobile for Fairphones than they are for their other products and in what way they're better. It's unclear how it comes to Foxconn for Apple and Google phones. Apple and Google design their devices and handle the firmware and software. Fairphone is using hardware, firmware and software provided by T2Mobile. Fairphone is heavily reliant on what's provided by their ODM. For example, their move to T2Mobile coincided with dropping the 3.5mm audio jack. It's likely not something they wanted to do and many of their supporters were unhappy about it, but it's not really their phone hardware. The phones are essentially T2Mobile devices and there's not a lot of information available. It isn't clear why they switched to T2Mobile with the Fairphone 4 or why the earlier switch to another ODM happened with the Fairphone 3.
Grombobulous 2mo ago
Only for one voice to text feature which is completely optional to use and can be replaced with something else. As another commenter mentioned, this voice to text feature is now an offline feature and no longer sends data outside the device. As another note, this Fairphone can be purchased without /e/OS at all. It’s now being sold in the US without Murena being involved at all.
- grapheneos 2mo ago
  /e/ has other privacy invasive services which are enabled by default. It gives highly privileged access to Google services which are always active and has user tracking in their update client. /e/ and Murena repeatedly claiming privacy/security hardened devices mainly benefit criminals and falsely claiming they're mainly used by criminals shows what they believe: https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-interview.html https://www.clubic.com/actualite-604786-murena-e-os-intervie... https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2040887784253141142 /e/ lacks many crucial standard privacy/security patches and protections: https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 https://nitter.net/GrapheneOS/status/2081837057433915603 Fairphones don't provide a reasonable level of privacy and security without /e/ either: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49354807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49354807
transdev12 2mo ago
You can stick to your morals without blowing things out of proportion. “We are the only acceptable way to do things and no tradeoffs are acceptable” is fairly petty. “We have a difference of opinion” isn’t.
stymaar 2mo ago
[flagged]

Telaneo 2mo ago

That does not seem like pettiness to me. That seems like a very good reason to not work with someone.

NetMageSCW 2mo ago
[flagged]
- Telaneo 2mo ago
  I'm not sure how you can read my comment to imply that.
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- grapheneos 2mo ago
  Fairphones continue to have awful updates, privacy and security. /e/ sending user speech data to OpenAI without consent for years never had anything to do with why Fairphones don't meet our requirements. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49354807 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49354807

Cider9986 2mo ago

>I want to like GrapheneOS, but the pettiness of its leadership is a real problem I used to feel a bit similarly. But I've since realized they are one of the very few software projects that actually make sensible privacy and security choices.

dnautics 2mo ago
[flagged]
- grapheneos 2mo ago
  The privacy and security deficiencies of CalyxOS have nothing to do with compromises for usability. GrapheneOS provides much better usability including through having far broader app compatibility. CalyxOS drastically reduces privacy and security compared to the Android Open Source Project. It recently went a whole year without privacy and security patches. They're currently months behind on providing current Pixel driver and firmware updates. It has never been a privacy or security hardened OS but rather the direct opposite.
  - dnautics 2mo ago
    [flagged]
    - grapheneos 2mo ago
      An operating system going a year without providing privacy and security patches is much worse than many options on that basis alone. It's currently months behind on updates. It's hardly the only other option available.

HybridStatAnim8 2mo ago

Refusing to work with organizations or individuals that are detrimental to privacy and security is not petty. Murena does not provide private or secure products and has positioned itself to be against what GrapheneOS provides. A partnership with a company opposed to GrapheneOS and spreading misinformation about it would not be beneficial, and it is not petty to make the smart choice for the benefit of privacy and security.

m4xp 2mo ago

As someone that swapped from fairphone 5 to a pixel9a with graphene. I have to side with graphene. Fairphone is a cool concept, but its a expensive phone, early on i had problem with the speakers and mic. Security updates are extremely slow, support is extremely slow. Their missions is to make a fair phone, but is it fair if you are then forced to buy more ewaste because your phone breaks? Look at pixel software support, its really good, and eu made batteries replacement mandatory.