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I dont care about making Isreal look good. I'm just pointing out that both sides use violent rhetoric because as you can see from this thread people did not kno

I dont care about making Isreal look good. I'm just pointing out that both sides use violent rhetoric because as you can see from this thread people did not know. I think sometimes people forget that the war was started intentionally with full knowledge what would happen.

colordrops 2mo ago
[flagged]
- judah 2mo ago
  > european zionist invaders I never thought I'd see this kind of blatant anti-semitism on HN. Jews in Europe were persecuted for hundreds of years as foreign invaders told to go back to their homeland. Immediately after the Holocaust, we realized it was time to return to our own country; we could not rely on the kindness of European nations. And now that we have returned, we're labelled invaders of our own nation, our historic homeland of 3,500 years. But Jews have been in Jerusalem longer than the British have been in London. We built Tel Aviv from a desert into a modern city. We rebuilt Jerusalem and opened it up to Muslims, Christians, and Jews. It's wild historic revisionism to claim Jews are stealing Arab lands. There are over 30 Muslim- and Arab-majority nations. There is only a single Jewish nation: our historic, 3,500 year old homeland: Israel.
  - customguy 2mo ago
    People are responsible for their actions, and big, racist buckets labelled "Jews" and "Arabs" are meaningless. Might as well say "humans always lived here, I'm a human, so it's my land now". If this is the level of thought these crimes are defended with, oh boy.
    - judah 2mo ago
      Do you hold the same standard for native Americans? And yes, people are responsible for their actions. Hamas, an Islamic fundamentalist group whose founding charter calls for the violent overthrow of the world's only Jewish state, started a war on October 7th, 2023. Israel fought back and won, and now Hamas is paying dearly for what they did.
      - customguy 2mo ago
        > yes, people are responsible for their actions. So why keep talking to claim the opposite again, trying to absolve Israel of responsibility again? > Hamas, an Islamic fundamentalist group whose founding charter calls for the violent overthrow of the world's only Jewish state ... was sponsored by those who now use them as a pre-text. And that old, initial version of their charter, since revised, is still a joke to bring up in attempt to deflect from what IDF and Israeli politicians showed and show us, right now. Israeli right-wing extremists, racists and fascists want more land, and don't consider Palestinians (or people in Libya or Iran, for that matter) as people, never did. Trying to kick up sand and pointing at some "other" just makes it more pathetic, it means you're just doubling down on such a pathetic and evil enterprise. > the world's only Jewish state It's Israel and Israelis. Buying land and calling it Israel doesn't make it biblical Israel, if God wanted to found a country he'd let you know. In the reality I do care about, Israel is the only state claiming to be a democracy whose supreme court allows torture, or that refuses to define its borders. Not allowing "mixed" marriages is also cringe, but in this context meh, who cares, let them be cringe. But even hinting at the the Torah while there's people singing about how there are no children in Gaza is an insolence you can try on someone else. Shame on you for implicitly invoking murdered people who were treated like Palestinians are treated by Israelis today. The nerve. > Hamas is paying dearly for what they did. Repeating such robotic one-liners is just the attempt to evade accountability for collective punishment plus other war crimes and crimes against humanity. That's some "winning" you're doing. Like a toddler that can no longer even scream coherent words, violence is the only remaining bridge Israel has to the rest of the world.
        judah 1mo ago
        > "So why keep talking to claim the opposite again, trying to absolve Israel of responsibility again?" Because Israel winning a war they didn't start is a good thing, actually. Israel fighting until the hostages were released is a good thing. > "And that old, initial version of their charter, since revised, is still a joke to bring up in attempt to deflect from what IDF and Israeli politicians showed and show us, right now." Hamas still wants its original goal, it still wants to destroy the Jewish people and institute an Islamic fundamentalist state. Theirs is an antisemitic, genocidal agenda, encoded in the group's founding document and still believed and fought for by its members. > "repeating such robotic one-liners is just the attempt to evade accountability for collective punishment plus other war crimes and crimes against humanity." Hamas started a war and lost it. With Hamas thoroughly defeated, their foolish supporters in the West are now relegated to screeching false accusations against Jews online. I'm ok with that. A real genocide -- for which the term was first coined -- looks like a population whose numbers are still lower some 90 years later. Nazi Germany committed genocide against Jews in Europe in 1939, killing 6 million Jews, and the worldwide Jewish population today still hasn't recovered to pre-1939 levels. Hamas wants to do the same to Jews today. Israel won't let them. And this is the root cause of conflict in the Middle East.
  - DiogenesKynikos 2mo ago
    > we realized it was time to return to our own country The problem is that it was someone else's country. "Returning" after 2000 years and telling the people who have lived there for centuries that you rightfully own the place is insane. No one anywhere on earth would accept that.
    - judah 2mo ago
      Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for 3,500 years. Many more returned home after the Holocaust and rebuilt cities, created new ones like Tel Aviv, turned sand into productive land.
      - DiogenesKynikos 2mo ago
        By "continuous presence," you mean that a tiny number of Jews lived there. The vast majority of Jews lived elsewhere, and the vast majority of the local population was not Jewish. I'm sorry, but 5% of the population of Palestine being Jewish does not give one the right to take over the country, not to mention the fact that the longstanding Jewish population of Palestine was hostile to Zionism. It was a European political movement.
        judah 2mo ago
        If continuous presence in a land doesn't define a people's right to exist as a nation, you know what does? The ability to create and defend borders. Israel has that. Israel was invaded on the day it declared independence on May 14th, 1948. Invaded by 9 Arab nations and armies[0], Israel not only successfully defended itself and won the war, it even gained territory from the aggressors. Israel has a right to exist because its people have had a continuous presence in that land going back longer than the British have been in London, longer than the French have been in Paris. Israel has a right to exist because it defends its people and its borders and has the approval of the United Nations, UN Resolution 181. The only people who deny this right of Jews to return to their native homeland? Bonafide neo-Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, KKK members, and other antisemites. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - seer 2mo ago
    Everyone is always a squatter on someone else’s land, for millennia now. The question is how do you deal with it. Israel “dealing” with its “Palestinian problem” by taking a book out of nazis and Ottoman Empire is both ironic and incredibly sad. Also kinda inevitable if you think about it just from a game theory point of view. Every act of violence, every war, won or lost, increases support for a radical party. Every act of terror Hamas / Hezbollah promote strengthens Netanyahu’s position, every act of terror Israeli government does strengthens Hamas / Hezbollah. It’s just game theory - either respective positions are not to “solve the actual problem” it’s to perpetuate their own existence. If the terror stops, all three lose power, so which leader would ever do it? There has to be either an outside enemy to drive people together, or an outside force of peace doing the same (EUs role in the Northern Ireland’s case). And this becomes even harder if you have external powers that are _driving_ the division (Iran for example in be middle eastern case). It’s just humans being greedy and thinking of local political problems and not the bigger picture, a “premature optimisation” if your will…
    - judah 2mo ago
      It's incredibly cynical to demonize Jews for living in our historic homeland and turning desert sand into thriving cities[0]. It's what we prayed for daily for centuries after being thrown out of Europe. Now it's here, now we're living it, and haters call us by our persecutors' name for doing it. [0]: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/tel-aviv-sand-plot-1909/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/tel-aviv-sand-plot-1909/
      - seer 2mo ago
        Tel-aviv is honestly incredibly impressive, I’ve been there and the place is amazing - that it was just a sand dune and without the Arab oil wealth still managed to make this land into an amazing place to live… Don’t think anyone is faulting people for that - it’s the other side of the coin that the whole world is kinda not really liking. And it’s not like there aren’t examples of successful integrations - even with internal tensions some places do manage to just make people live together, it’s hard yes but not impossible… just have to have the will and smarts for it, wonder what the current Israeli government is lacking…
  - colordrops 2mo ago
    [flagged]
customguy 2mo ago
Palestinians aren't claiming to be the only democracy in the Middle East and all that shit. If individual Israelis want to claim they're not monsters, what Palestinians do or doesn't do doesn't enter into it, only the actions and deeds ( or lack thereof) of the Israelis in question do, and how that meets or fails to meet specific standards of morality. The same goes for Palestinians. > I think sometimes people forget that the war was started intentionally with full knowledge what would happen. So, collective punishment. Don't bother about the "violent rhetoric" of any "sides", deal with what you just said and what that says about you.
vincnetas 2mo ago
and i'm pointing out, that there is concept of credible threat. One thing is when bum in the street shouts at passing by cars that he's gonna kill them all and throws some stones, and another is when armed swat team at your door points machine gun at you ant tell you they going to kill you.

colordrops 2mo ago

[flagged]

judah 2mo ago
> european zionist invaders I never thought I'd see this kind of blatant anti-semitism on HN. Jews in Europe were persecuted for hundreds of years as foreign invaders told to go back to their homeland. Immediately after the Holocaust, we realized it was time to return to our own country; we could not rely on the kindness of European nations. And now that we have returned, we're labelled invaders of our own nation, our historic homeland of 3,500 years. But Jews have been in Jerusalem longer than the British have been in London. We built Tel Aviv from a desert into a modern city. We rebuilt Jerusalem and opened it up to Muslims, Christians, and Jews. It's wild historic revisionism to claim Jews are stealing Arab lands. There are over 30 Muslim- and Arab-majority nations. There is only a single Jewish nation: our historic, 3,500 year old homeland: Israel.
- customguy 2mo ago
  People are responsible for their actions, and big, racist buckets labelled "Jews" and "Arabs" are meaningless. Might as well say "humans always lived here, I'm a human, so it's my land now". If this is the level of thought these crimes are defended with, oh boy.
  - judah 2mo ago
    Do you hold the same standard for native Americans? And yes, people are responsible for their actions. Hamas, an Islamic fundamentalist group whose founding charter calls for the violent overthrow of the world's only Jewish state, started a war on October 7th, 2023. Israel fought back and won, and now Hamas is paying dearly for what they did.
    - customguy 2mo ago
      > yes, people are responsible for their actions. So why keep talking to claim the opposite again, trying to absolve Israel of responsibility again? > Hamas, an Islamic fundamentalist group whose founding charter calls for the violent overthrow of the world's only Jewish state ... was sponsored by those who now use them as a pre-text. And that old, initial version of their charter, since revised, is still a joke to bring up in attempt to deflect from what IDF and Israeli politicians showed and show us, right now. Israeli right-wing extremists, racists and fascists want more land, and don't consider Palestinians (or people in Libya or Iran, for that matter) as people, never did. Trying to kick up sand and pointing at some "other" just makes it more pathetic, it means you're just doubling down on such a pathetic and evil enterprise. > the world's only Jewish state It's Israel and Israelis. Buying land and calling it Israel doesn't make it biblical Israel, if God wanted to found a country he'd let you know. In the reality I do care about, Israel is the only state claiming to be a democracy whose supreme court allows torture, or that refuses to define its borders. Not allowing "mixed" marriages is also cringe, but in this context meh, who cares, let them be cringe. But even hinting at the the Torah while there's people singing about how there are no children in Gaza is an insolence you can try on someone else. Shame on you for implicitly invoking murdered people who were treated like Palestinians are treated by Israelis today. The nerve. > Hamas is paying dearly for what they did. Repeating such robotic one-liners is just the attempt to evade accountability for collective punishment plus other war crimes and crimes against humanity. That's some "winning" you're doing. Like a toddler that can no longer even scream coherent words, violence is the only remaining bridge Israel has to the rest of the world.
      - judah 1mo ago
        > "So why keep talking to claim the opposite again, trying to absolve Israel of responsibility again?" Because Israel winning a war they didn't start is a good thing, actually. Israel fighting until the hostages were released is a good thing. > "And that old, initial version of their charter, since revised, is still a joke to bring up in attempt to deflect from what IDF and Israeli politicians showed and show us, right now." Hamas still wants its original goal, it still wants to destroy the Jewish people and institute an Islamic fundamentalist state. Theirs is an antisemitic, genocidal agenda, encoded in the group's founding document and still believed and fought for by its members. > "repeating such robotic one-liners is just the attempt to evade accountability for collective punishment plus other war crimes and crimes against humanity." Hamas started a war and lost it. With Hamas thoroughly defeated, their foolish supporters in the West are now relegated to screeching false accusations against Jews online. I'm ok with that. A real genocide -- for which the term was first coined -- looks like a population whose numbers are still lower some 90 years later. Nazi Germany committed genocide against Jews in Europe in 1939, killing 6 million Jews, and the worldwide Jewish population today still hasn't recovered to pre-1939 levels. Hamas wants to do the same to Jews today. Israel won't let them. And this is the root cause of conflict in the Middle East.
- DiogenesKynikos 2mo ago
  > we realized it was time to return to our own country The problem is that it was someone else's country. "Returning" after 2000 years and telling the people who have lived there for centuries that you rightfully own the place is insane. No one anywhere on earth would accept that.
  - judah 2mo ago
    Jews have had a continuous presence in Israel for 3,500 years. Many more returned home after the Holocaust and rebuilt cities, created new ones like Tel Aviv, turned sand into productive land.
    - DiogenesKynikos 2mo ago
      By "continuous presence," you mean that a tiny number of Jews lived there. The vast majority of Jews lived elsewhere, and the vast majority of the local population was not Jewish. I'm sorry, but 5% of the population of Palestine being Jewish does not give one the right to take over the country, not to mention the fact that the longstanding Jewish population of Palestine was hostile to Zionism. It was a European political movement.
      - judah 2mo ago
        If continuous presence in a land doesn't define a people's right to exist as a nation, you know what does? The ability to create and defend borders. Israel has that. Israel was invaded on the day it declared independence on May 14th, 1948. Invaded by 9 Arab nations and armies[0], Israel not only successfully defended itself and won the war, it even gained territory from the aggressors. Israel has a right to exist because its people have had a continuous presence in that land going back longer than the British have been in London, longer than the French have been in Paris. Israel has a right to exist because it defends its people and its borders and has the approval of the United Nations, UN Resolution 181. The only people who deny this right of Jews to return to their native homeland? Bonafide neo-Nazis, Islamic fundamentalists, KKK members, and other antisemites. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1948_Arab%E2%80%93Israeli_War
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- seer 2mo ago
  Everyone is always a squatter on someone else’s land, for millennia now. The question is how do you deal with it. Israel “dealing” with its “Palestinian problem” by taking a book out of nazis and Ottoman Empire is both ironic and incredibly sad. Also kinda inevitable if you think about it just from a game theory point of view. Every act of violence, every war, won or lost, increases support for a radical party. Every act of terror Hamas / Hezbollah promote strengthens Netanyahu’s position, every act of terror Israeli government does strengthens Hamas / Hezbollah. It’s just game theory - either respective positions are not to “solve the actual problem” it’s to perpetuate their own existence. If the terror stops, all three lose power, so which leader would ever do it? There has to be either an outside enemy to drive people together, or an outside force of peace doing the same (EUs role in the Northern Ireland’s case). And this becomes even harder if you have external powers that are _driving_ the division (Iran for example in be middle eastern case). It’s just humans being greedy and thinking of local political problems and not the bigger picture, a “premature optimisation” if your will…
  - judah 2mo ago
    It's incredibly cynical to demonize Jews for living in our historic homeland and turning desert sand into thriving cities[0]. It's what we prayed for daily for centuries after being thrown out of Europe. Now it's here, now we're living it, and haters call us by our persecutors' name for doing it. [0]: https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/tel-aviv-sand-plot-1909/ https://rarehistoricalphotos.com/tel-aviv-sand-plot-1909/
    - seer 2mo ago
      Tel-aviv is honestly incredibly impressive, I’ve been there and the place is amazing - that it was just a sand dune and without the Arab oil wealth still managed to make this land into an amazing place to live… Don’t think anyone is faulting people for that - it’s the other side of the coin that the whole world is kinda not really liking. And it’s not like there aren’t examples of successful integrations - even with internal tensions some places do manage to just make people live together, it’s hard yes but not impossible… just have to have the will and smarts for it, wonder what the current Israeli government is lacking…
- colordrops 2mo ago
  [flagged]

customguy 2mo ago

Palestinians aren't claiming to be the only democracy in the Middle East and all that shit. If individual Israelis want to claim they're not monsters, what Palestinians do or doesn't do doesn't enter into it, only the actions and deeds ( or lack thereof) of the Israelis in question do, and how that meets or fails to meet specific standards of morality. The same goes for Palestinians. > I think sometimes people forget that the war was started intentionally with full knowledge what would happen. So, collective punishment. Don't bother about the "violent rhetoric" of any "sides", deal with what you just said and what that says about you.

vincnetas 2mo ago

and i'm pointing out, that there is concept of credible threat. One thing is when bum in the street shouts at passing by cars that he's gonna kill them all and throws some stones, and another is when armed swat team at your door points machine gun at you ant tell you they going to kill you.