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Same reason the US is going after Pix in Brazil. The world is decoupling from the US and the US is going to try to flex against it as it continues. Dollar domin

Same reason the US is going after Pix in Brazil. The world is decoupling from the US and the US is going to try to flex against it as it continues. Dollar dominance and the “exorbitant privilege” continue to erode (with the acceleration self inflicted). Also shrinks the TAM of these private US firms to only the US versus the world. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorbitant_privilege https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exorbitant_privilege https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48994782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48994782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48415854 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48415854

icantevenhold 2mo ago
Something like Pix is a great blueprint for the future imo. I don’t want international private companies controlling payments, better have my own elected government manage it.
- toomuchtodo 2mo ago
  I encourage you to loudly champion such a model in your nation state to whomever is in power and will listen.
- catlikesshrimp 2mo ago
  It goes both ways: What if the ONLY payment method was the one approved by your "elected" government. A balance where they can all exist is the best, and most difficult decision.
  - surgical_fire 2mo ago
    > approved by your elected government. Fixed it for you. You had left some extraneous quotation marks there. Either way, while governments should not get free pass and should be scrutinized by its citizens, we definitely should not allow corporations with ties to hostile governments (such as the case of Visa and Mastercard) any oversight of payment infrastructure.
  - diego_moita 2mo ago
    > What if the ONLY payment method was the one approved by your "elected" government. Yeah, what if? You didn't provide any argument, didn't point to any real problem. You just hinted at a "terrible bad thing". Would we have monsters under our beds or bad guys in corners to ambush us? This sounds like VISA/Mastercad/Apple Pay playing FUD[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt
    - Ajedi32 2mo ago
      You realize you're arguing for a monopoly, right? One where competition is not only non-existent but also illegal, and which has complete control over how you're allowed to spend your money. I think arguing "but it's a democratic monopoly" is little comfort in this situation. Maybe you trust your government not to ever be incompetent or to use the powers granted by this monopoly in a way you disapprove of. Maybe in the short term you'd even be right to do so. But I think history has proven that over the long term that's a very foolish assumption to make.
      - TitaRusell 2mo ago
        In my country they have to make laws to FORCE shops and restaurants to accept cash. Because it is a damn hassle.
      - deleted 2mo ago
        [deleted]
      - moate 2mo ago
        You go far enough on fiscal tracking and you just wind up back where we've always been: barter. All currency is as useful as the regime backing it, and when that regime falls, barter always comes back in. Everything else is just rent seeking scaffolding to reduce barter friction (cash let's me store all the value I've created, but so could gold bars, or bitcoin, or vodka). This is to say: All currency is about control and convenience (you trade "invisible transaction" for "easily able to resolve payment") because those in power want to know/control the money and everyone else wants convenience.
  - senorrib 2mo ago
    Currency is already managed by the elected government, and every democracy in the world traces electronic transactions. Some (like Italy) forbid cash payments in large sums altogether. So what's the boogieman here?
    - b112 2mo ago
      The boogyman is just what you described, and every democracy in the world absolutely does not trace electronic transactions. Some have a more hands off approach, including size of transactions and flagged behaviour as indicators of when payment processors must report to the government. The Goverment should absolutely have no idea who spends what, where. Warrants and court orders, check values should be required before anyone can know. The potential to suppress political opponents, to squelch legitimate protest, to interfere with elections, is too dangerous. Simply because some countries, like the US after 9/11, decided to give up this aspect of a free people, does not make it right.
      - sneak 2mo ago
        They do trace and log them, though.
        carlosjobim 2mo ago
        They do not. They have to get a warrant to get such logs from a bank.
        sneak 2mo ago
        What makes you believe that this is true?
      - ivell 2mo ago
        AFAIK, in India, payments more than Rs. 50k is tracked. In anycase, the governments have the capability, what remains is just the intend. And we see how intends could change at the whim of a leader.
  - bix6 2mo ago
    Payment rails are a natural monopoly so yeah I’m good with the gov owning it and as the article says, everyone is free to compete with the services they offer.
  - cyberax 2mo ago
    The government can already order VISA to not accept your payment and/or just make it too cost-prohibitive. Without any real recourse from your side. Direct government services typically have a universal mandate. The government won't be able to stop doing business with you.
  - dpc050505 2mo ago
    I'd have a very hard time spending other currencies than CAD to pay my bills.
  - icantevenhold 2mo ago
    The alternatives still exist, there is just less and less reason to use them because they charge extra fees.
- matheusmoreira 2mo ago
  I don't want corporations controlling payments, but I don't want my government controlling payments either. What I actually wanted was for the cryptocurrency dream to become reality, but it turned into stocks instead.
  - brnt 2mo ago
    Your government already controls your currency and thereby your assets, why would you die on the this particular hill of how you can transact this government-created currency? For free as opposed to for a fee no less? You don't believe transaction data isn't shared (sold) by commercial parties do you?
- Gormo 2mo ago
  > I don’t want international private companies controlling payments, better have my own elected government manage it. The ideal of course is decentralized payment systems with no middlemen, but if there are going to be middlemen, a competitive marketplace of middlemen driven primary by predictable financial incentives is vastly less scary than monopolization by power-centralizing political institutions.
missedthecue 2mo ago
The interesting thing is that Visa's payment rails are cheaper than Pix. Pix charges businesses 0.22% to 0.33% while the Visa network rate is only 0.10% to 0.15% per transaction. The main thing that makes card transactions more expensive is the merchant bank assuming chargeback risk, but that's because card payments are an entirely different transaction type. Pix is digital cash. You typically cannot get refunded for any reason. Cards are not digital cash. You can get refunded for fraud and unauthorized transactions.
- decimalenough 2mo ago
  Visa debit, maybe, but they're way higher for Visa credit.
- toomuchtodo 2mo ago
  > The interesting thing is that Visa's payment rails are cheaper than Pix. Pix charges businesses 0.22% to 0.33% while the Visa network rate is only 0.10% to 0.15% per transaction. This is not factually accurate. Pix also has fraud controls built into the platform, and does fine doing far more volume than credit card rails in Brazil. It is an objective success, having avoided US financial service firms from skimming hundreds of basis points of total economic activity out of the Brazilian economy. Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48052371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48052371 - May 2026 (383 comments) Brazil's Pix ‘much cheaper' than card payments, paper by central bank economists shows - https://www.reuters.com/article/business/brazils-pix-much-cheaper-than-card-payments-paper-by-central-bank-economists-idUSL2N2VP316/ https://www.reuters.com/article/business/brazils-pix-much-ch... - March 23rd, 2022 ("Brazil’s Pix retail instant payment system is “much cheaper” than card payments for merchants, according to a paper published Wednesday by the umbrella body of the world’s central banks, highlighting its growth potential for businesses after its vertiginous rise among individuals. The paper, which was co-authored by economists at the Brazilian central bank for the Bank of International Settlements (BIS), says Pix costs an average of 0.22% of a transaction’s value for merchants, whereas debit cards cost slightly above 1% and credit cards reach 2.2% in Brazil.") Payment technology complementarities and their consequences on the banking sector: evidence from Brazil’s Pix - https://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap152_c.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap152_c.pdf - December 2024 > In this paper, we employ an instrument and individual-level banking data in Brazil to examine the effects of a novel payment technology, Pix, on the use of other payment technologies and its impact on the banking sector. We find evidence that Pix increases use of the four most common payment technologies in Brazil among individuals and firms. Furthermore, our empirical evidence suggests that Pix contributes to an increase in the number of bank accounts, their use and access to credit, benefiting different types of banks. The findings indicate that the implementation of new payment technologies yields advantages not only for firms and individuals but also for the broader banking and payment industry.
AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
If the US had any foresight it could stave this off by making its own global payments system be the one with the lowest fees, and thereby keep people using US currency and US institutions. Whereas if you give other countries the obvious win that they can stop paying ~3% of their entire economy to a foreign payments network then you lose the fees anyway and that other stuff on top of it.
- toomuchtodo 2mo ago
  It’s not just about cost, it’s about control and sovereignty. Other countries do not want to have their payment systems rug pulled at the whim of whomever US voters decide to put into office each election cycle. The cost to build your own is reasonable compared to what losing the capability costs. “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” Europe Fights to Loosen America’s Grip on Payment Systems - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-06-16/europe-fights-to-loosen-america-s-grip-on-payment-systems https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-06-16/europe-fi... | https://archive.today/o699I https://archive.today/o699I - June 16th, 2026 China nears launch of mBridge as alternative to Swift – report - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48636931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48636931 - June 2026
  - AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
    > Other countries do not want to have their payment systems rug pulled at the whim of whomever US voters decide to put into office each election cycle. Which is the reason the US is also shooting itself in the foot every time it rug pulls them. If you want people to trust and rely on your thing then you kind of need to avoid being untrustworthy and unreliable.
    - vkou 2mo ago
      If trust and reliability were a priority for America, we wouldn't be where we are today.
    - expedition32 2mo ago
      The US spent a hundred years building up soft power and all it takes to sink it is one mad emperor.

icantevenhold 2mo ago

Something like Pix is a great blueprint for the future imo. I don’t want international private companies controlling payments, better have my own elected government manage it.

toomuchtodo 2mo ago
I encourage you to loudly champion such a model in your nation state to whomever is in power and will listen.
catlikesshrimp 2mo ago
It goes both ways: What if the ONLY payment method was the one approved by your "elected" government. A balance where they can all exist is the best, and most difficult decision.
- surgical_fire 2mo ago
  > approved by your elected government. Fixed it for you. You had left some extraneous quotation marks there. Either way, while governments should not get free pass and should be scrutinized by its citizens, we definitely should not allow corporations with ties to hostile governments (such as the case of Visa and Mastercard) any oversight of payment infrastructure.
- diego_moita 2mo ago
  > What if the ONLY payment method was the one approved by your "elected" government. Yeah, what if? You didn't provide any argument, didn't point to any real problem. You just hinted at a "terrible bad thing". Would we have monsters under our beds or bad guys in corners to ambush us? This sounds like VISA/Mastercad/Apple Pay playing FUD[1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fear,_uncertainty,_and_doubt
  - Ajedi32 2mo ago
    You realize you're arguing for a monopoly, right? One where competition is not only non-existent but also illegal, and which has complete control over how you're allowed to spend your money. I think arguing "but it's a democratic monopoly" is little comfort in this situation. Maybe you trust your government not to ever be incompetent or to use the powers granted by this monopoly in a way you disapprove of. Maybe in the short term you'd even be right to do so. But I think history has proven that over the long term that's a very foolish assumption to make.
    - TitaRusell 2mo ago
      In my country they have to make laws to FORCE shops and restaurants to accept cash. Because it is a damn hassle.
    - deleted 2mo ago
      [deleted]
    - moate 2mo ago
      You go far enough on fiscal tracking and you just wind up back where we've always been: barter. All currency is as useful as the regime backing it, and when that regime falls, barter always comes back in. Everything else is just rent seeking scaffolding to reduce barter friction (cash let's me store all the value I've created, but so could gold bars, or bitcoin, or vodka). This is to say: All currency is about control and convenience (you trade "invisible transaction" for "easily able to resolve payment") because those in power want to know/control the money and everyone else wants convenience.
- senorrib 2mo ago
  Currency is already managed by the elected government, and every democracy in the world traces electronic transactions. Some (like Italy) forbid cash payments in large sums altogether. So what's the boogieman here?
  - b112 2mo ago
    The boogyman is just what you described, and every democracy in the world absolutely does not trace electronic transactions. Some have a more hands off approach, including size of transactions and flagged behaviour as indicators of when payment processors must report to the government. The Goverment should absolutely have no idea who spends what, where. Warrants and court orders, check values should be required before anyone can know. The potential to suppress political opponents, to squelch legitimate protest, to interfere with elections, is too dangerous. Simply because some countries, like the US after 9/11, decided to give up this aspect of a free people, does not make it right.
    - sneak 2mo ago
      They do trace and log them, though.
      - carlosjobim 2mo ago
        They do not. They have to get a warrant to get such logs from a bank.
        sneak 2mo ago
        What makes you believe that this is true?
    - ivell 2mo ago
      AFAIK, in India, payments more than Rs. 50k is tracked. In anycase, the governments have the capability, what remains is just the intend. And we see how intends could change at the whim of a leader.
- bix6 2mo ago
  Payment rails are a natural monopoly so yeah I’m good with the gov owning it and as the article says, everyone is free to compete with the services they offer.
- cyberax 2mo ago
  The government can already order VISA to not accept your payment and/or just make it too cost-prohibitive. Without any real recourse from your side. Direct government services typically have a universal mandate. The government won't be able to stop doing business with you.
- dpc050505 2mo ago
  I'd have a very hard time spending other currencies than CAD to pay my bills.
- icantevenhold 2mo ago
  The alternatives still exist, there is just less and less reason to use them because they charge extra fees.
matheusmoreira 2mo ago
I don't want corporations controlling payments, but I don't want my government controlling payments either. What I actually wanted was for the cryptocurrency dream to become reality, but it turned into stocks instead.
- brnt 2mo ago
  Your government already controls your currency and thereby your assets, why would you die on the this particular hill of how you can transact this government-created currency? For free as opposed to for a fee no less? You don't believe transaction data isn't shared (sold) by commercial parties do you?
Gormo 2mo ago
> I don’t want international private companies controlling payments, better have my own elected government manage it. The ideal of course is decentralized payment systems with no middlemen, but if there are going to be middlemen, a competitive marketplace of middlemen driven primary by predictable financial incentives is vastly less scary than monopolization by power-centralizing political institutions.

missedthecue 2mo ago

The interesting thing is that Visa's payment rails are cheaper than Pix. Pix charges businesses 0.22% to 0.33% while the Visa network rate is only 0.10% to 0.15% per transaction. The main thing that makes card transactions more expensive is the merchant bank assuming chargeback risk, but that's because card payments are an entirely different transaction type. Pix is digital cash. You typically cannot get refunded for any reason. Cards are not digital cash. You can get refunded for fraud and unauthorized transactions.

decimalenough 2mo ago
Visa debit, maybe, but they're way higher for Visa credit.
toomuchtodo 2mo ago
> The interesting thing is that Visa's payment rails are cheaper than Pix. Pix charges businesses 0.22% to 0.33% while the Visa network rate is only 0.10% to 0.15% per transaction. This is not factually accurate. Pix also has fraud controls built into the platform, and does fine doing far more volume than credit card rails in Brazil. It is an objective success, having avoided US financial service firms from skimming hundreds of basis points of total economic activity out of the Brazilian economy. Brazil's Pix payment system faces pressure from Visa and Mastercard - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48052371 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48052371 - May 2026 (383 comments) Brazil's Pix ‘much cheaper' than card payments, paper by central bank economists shows - https://www.reuters.com/article/business/brazils-pix-much-cheaper-than-card-payments-paper-by-central-bank-economists-idUSL2N2VP316/ https://www.reuters.com/article/business/brazils-pix-much-ch... - March 23rd, 2022 ("Brazil’s Pix retail instant payment system is “much cheaper” than card payments for merchants, according to a paper published Wednesday by the umbrella body of the world’s central banks, highlighting its growth potential for businesses after its vertiginous rise among individuals. The paper, which was co-authored by economists at the Brazilian central bank for the Bank of International Settlements (BIS), says Pix costs an average of 0.22% of a transaction’s value for merchants, whereas debit cards cost slightly above 1% and credit cards reach 2.2% in Brazil.") Payment technology complementarities and their consequences on the banking sector: evidence from Brazil’s Pix - https://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap152_c.pdf https://www.bis.org/publ/bppdf/bispap152_c.pdf - December 2024 > In this paper, we employ an instrument and individual-level banking data in Brazil to examine the effects of a novel payment technology, Pix, on the use of other payment technologies and its impact on the banking sector. We find evidence that Pix increases use of the four most common payment technologies in Brazil among individuals and firms. Furthermore, our empirical evidence suggests that Pix contributes to an increase in the number of bank accounts, their use and access to credit, benefiting different types of banks. The findings indicate that the implementation of new payment technologies yields advantages not only for firms and individuals but also for the broader banking and payment industry.

AnthonyMouse 2mo ago

If the US had any foresight it could stave this off by making its own global payments system be the one with the lowest fees, and thereby keep people using US currency and US institutions. Whereas if you give other countries the obvious win that they can stop paying ~3% of their entire economy to a foreign payments network then you lose the fees anyway and that other stuff on top of it.

toomuchtodo 2mo ago
It’s not just about cost, it’s about control and sovereignty. Other countries do not want to have their payment systems rug pulled at the whim of whomever US voters decide to put into office each election cycle. The cost to build your own is reasonable compared to what losing the capability costs. “Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.” Europe Fights to Loosen America’s Grip on Payment Systems - https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-06-16/europe-fights-to-loosen-america-s-grip-on-payment-systems https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-06-16/europe-fi... | https://archive.today/o699I https://archive.today/o699I - June 16th, 2026 China nears launch of mBridge as alternative to Swift – report - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48636931 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48636931 - June 2026
- AnthonyMouse 2mo ago
  > Other countries do not want to have their payment systems rug pulled at the whim of whomever US voters decide to put into office each election cycle. Which is the reason the US is also shooting itself in the foot every time it rug pulls them. If you want people to trust and rely on your thing then you kind of need to avoid being untrustworthy and unreliable.
  - vkou 2mo ago
    If trust and reliability were a priority for America, we wouldn't be where we are today.
  - expedition32 2mo ago
    The US spent a hundred years building up soft power and all it takes to sink it is one mad emperor.