4 ms·

> You are also safer during a power outage. The STREAM 5000 provides up to 3 kW of off-grid output. Keep essential devices on its backup output and reserve some

> You are also safer during a power outage. The STREAM 5000 provides up to 3 kW of off-grid output. Keep essential devices on its backup output and reserve some battery capacity, and your refrigerator, lights, router, and laptop can keep running when the grid goes down. An ordinary grid connection does not back up the whole house automatically; the backup output must be configured correctly. Being able to cut over your entire house from grid power to a battery requires an invasive, expensive change to most connections. I wish people would stop breathlessly promoting batteries (which are good! we need decentralized storage!) because "you can use them to run your fridge, router, etc". Yes you can, but for almost all consumers it's an order of magnitude more effort and cash compared to just buying and plugging in a battery.

fhdkweig 2mo ago
If a fridge is your only concern, they make UPSes specifically for fridges. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Uninterruptible+power+supply+refrigerator&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Uninterruptible+power+supply+refri...
tonymet 2mo ago
I disagree. During an outage, you need your fridge and a few other essential items. A novice can plug into the back. The device tells you the load and whether you are exceeding. And you can test it at any time. For $600 you can get started without an electrician. it's the easiest, safest , most affordable and most reliable emergency solution ever available.
- brk 2mo ago
  For a relatively small battery like that, it's not going to last for days. In the typical outage where that battery would carry you, you can typically just leave the fridge closed and it will stay cold enough to prevent 99% of your stuff from spoiling. For most people (at least the US), it's not super easy to get at the plug in the back of the fridge anyway. Running HVAC is usually more of a concern, especially in winter or peak of summer, and those aren't device that you can hot-plug, and a small battery wouldn't help there anyway. I like the idea of whole-house batteries, but to really make it practical you're talking about thousands of dollars to the battery, install, etc. And you still don't have extensive run time, which is why I think you see most people still leaning towards permanent or portable generators way more than batteries.
  - jerf 2mo ago
    People need to make decisions about how much resiliency they want. A medium-sized battery greatly enhances your options in an outage. A "solar generator" expands them yet farther. A whole-house generator somewhat farther. It's a lot easier and cheaper if you don't insist that your "resiliency" be "I live my life with no compromises whatsoever". But I would advocate that "zero resiliency" needs to be seen as being socially irresponsible. It is socially irresponsible that as soon as a service goes out that you are immediately in an emergency. You should not offload basic resiliency on to emergency services. Yes, if you take a direct hit from a tornado you're going to be leaning on emergency services, but the house a quarter mile from touchdown that may be out for three or four days needs to be able to deal with that. If nothing else, emergency supplies are a lot cheaper when it's not an emergency. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and especially so when perfect is so much more expensive and so much less relevant than the good.
    - munificent 2mo ago
      > It is socially irresponsible that as soon as a service goes out that you are immediately in an emergency. You should not offload basic resiliency on to emergency services. Sure, but that's not a remotely accurate description of a house without a backup battery or generator. I grew up in hurricane country and weathered many bad storms. Losing power does not put you immediately in an emergency. If you don't open the fridge much, your perishables will last a couple of days. Non-perishables will last much longer. Having a battery is the difference between "we can hang out and grill dinner for 5 days before we need to hit the road" and "we can hang out and grill dinner for 6 days before we need to hit the road". That distinction does not significantly change your strategy. Losing water is a much bigger emergency but is thankfully rarer and a backup battery won't help. Climate change will change this story somewhat in the South. If you are in a very hot climate, elderly, or have other health issues, then losing electricity and air conditioning in the summer can be an immediate emergency. Again, though, A/Cs consume so much electricity that a backup battery won't help you much. I think you're significantly overestimating the emergency value of a battery backup. Loss of electricity is rarely a rapid emergency. In cases where it is, a generator will at least give you as much power as you care to store fuel.
- isoprophlex 2mo ago
  I really get where you're coming from, but I'm approaching this from the ~$1500, 5 kWh battery in TFA, which weights 50-60 kg, should be installed somewhere out of the way in a non-fire-hazardous manner. They're great, they can load-shift a meaningful chunk of daily consumption for most european homes don't just move these around to your freezer. They don't magically make you independent in case of grid failures, it's just not what they're for. And to get the average consumer to adopt these, the messaging about what they can and can't do should be crystal clear.
Aachen 2mo ago
Not necessarily the point. If it provides a normal wall outlet I'm happy to plug essentials around for the one time per 1-2 decades this happens for longer than 4 hours and the fridge/freezer/laptop needs a boost
- EvanAnderson 2mo ago
  As long as you're not opening the fridge / freezer during the outage (and you have sufficient thermal mass of food in it) you don't need to worry about "boosting" it during a power outage of only 4 hours. I don't recall the rule of thumb off the top of my head, but for at least 6 hours I'd expect the contents of normal fridge / freezer to be just fine (as long as there's thermal mass there).
  - jonathanlydall 2mo ago
    Can confirm from years of load shedding in the past in South Africa where my area had 4 hour outages. That duration was tough for various reasons, but fridge and freezer were not really an issue. I was very happy when they changed to 2 hour outages (albeit twice as many), and then even happier with not having load shedding for about 2 years now.
  - DontchaKnowit 2mo ago
    They said longer than 4 hours
  - Aachen 2mo ago
    Yes, thanks, indeed I'd start doing this *after* 4h if I have such a battery since fridge, freezer, and laptop are all in different places and they'll run for 90 minutes to cool or charge and it's probably not bad to get around to all towards the end of the first day with no stress. It was just an arbitrary starting point really. Freezer contents are also all fine after 24h but maybe some edges got towards the thawing point. I've not tried it out and simply wouldn't care to find out
- rtkwe 2mo ago
  The issue there is the plug would be on the battery which you're unlikely to have mounted in a convenient location for things like your main fridge, router, and computer. For me all 3 of those are pretty far away from the most likely places I'd put a battery bank. I have a mobile one I keep charged up for emergencies and long power outages and have a small portable solar panel for it for multiday outages.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]
ssl-3 2mo ago
And the proposed battery solution only works at up to 3kW. My electric range uses more than that, and my water heater, clothes dryer, and aircon each come close. And, sure: I can get by very well with refrigeration, networking, computing and/or TV, and lights during a power outage. But those loads need to be segregated, or it just doesn't work. That adds more expense. And since those segregated loads don't even come anywhere near 3kW, it isn't clear to me how I'm to be maximizing my local use of surplus power events. There are grid-interactive battery solutions from companies like EG4 that can go betwixt the entire house and its grid connection, but this isn't it.
- croemer 2mo ago
  Why do you need to segregate them? Can't you switch the rest off? Or is the problem that otherwise you'd supply neighbors as well?
  - deleted 2mo ago
    [deleted]
  - ssl-3 2mo ago
    Just because it's the real world. :) If things aren't segregated and the power goes off while I'm cooking, the aircon is running, the water heater is doing its thing, or whatever, then: I exceed 3kW. 3kW is the maximum that the device can supply. If load exceeds maximum, then something will (must) fail. Hopefully it fails gracefully, but I mean: I've been married before and I understand how terrific and fantastic it can be when things go slightly wrong at home when I'm not around to address them. The less Rube Goldberg my creations are, the more peaceful my life is. (None of this modern name-brand grid-tied stuff is any particular danger to linemen. It won't output anything on those terminals if it doesn't have an AC waveform to synchronize with.)
adolph 2mo ago
The cost/invasiveness of cutover is dropping. There is a relatively new category called "plug in solar" where the inverter/battery is smart enought to detect, sync and use grid power. The Stream system: Connect the device to the grid to enable it to feed power into the grid or draw power from it when solar energy is insufficient. This can be done via a standard home outlet (if permitted), or through a circuit breaker. [0] 0. https://manuals.ecoflow.com/us/product/stream-ultra?lang=en_US https://manuals.ecoflow.com/us/product/stream-ultra?lang=en_...
apercu 2mo ago
I mean, yes and no. Switching your whole house over automatically? Yeah, ok, that can get invasive and expensive. Running an extension cord from a battery/inverter or generator a multiport plug then to to your fridge, router and a couple of lights? That's about 5-10 minutes of effort. There's a pretty massive middle ground between "plug in a battery" and "rewire the house.
- bluGill 2mo ago
  Switching the whole house is cheap compared to the generator or battery needed to run everything in the house. Of you can't run everything then you may as well have nothing. The important things need a lot of power.
  - apercu 2mo ago
    > Of you can't run everything then you may as well have nothing. Who says? Say I need my fridge, freezer, router and a light or two. That's $4k. Whole house? $25-35k. Also, I have a wood burning stove and piles of firewood).
m463 2mo ago
I think you're right -- depending on the country. It seems australia has very low friction and US with our power companies, significantly more - where you going to find an electrician? - do you need someone to design your grid-tie plan? - when will the power company approve your connection? I've had friends wire their house, have to really work to plan the setup, and be stuck with a working system offline while PG&E approves slowly Another point: People might be better served NOT buying a battery, instead getting an EV and wiring it into their house. for example: https://www.tesla.com/powershare/ https://www.tesla.com/powershare/ or just "bidirectional charging" for other brands

fhdkweig 2mo ago

If a fridge is your only concern, they make UPSes specifically for fridges. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Uninterruptible+power+supply+refrigerator&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Uninterruptible+power+supply+refri...

tonymet 2mo ago

I disagree. During an outage, you need your fridge and a few other essential items. A novice can plug into the back. The device tells you the load and whether you are exceeding. And you can test it at any time. For $600 you can get started without an electrician. it's the easiest, safest , most affordable and most reliable emergency solution ever available.

brk 2mo ago
For a relatively small battery like that, it's not going to last for days. In the typical outage where that battery would carry you, you can typically just leave the fridge closed and it will stay cold enough to prevent 99% of your stuff from spoiling. For most people (at least the US), it's not super easy to get at the plug in the back of the fridge anyway. Running HVAC is usually more of a concern, especially in winter or peak of summer, and those aren't device that you can hot-plug, and a small battery wouldn't help there anyway. I like the idea of whole-house batteries, but to really make it practical you're talking about thousands of dollars to the battery, install, etc. And you still don't have extensive run time, which is why I think you see most people still leaning towards permanent or portable generators way more than batteries.
- jerf 2mo ago
  People need to make decisions about how much resiliency they want. A medium-sized battery greatly enhances your options in an outage. A "solar generator" expands them yet farther. A whole-house generator somewhat farther. It's a lot easier and cheaper if you don't insist that your "resiliency" be "I live my life with no compromises whatsoever". But I would advocate that "zero resiliency" needs to be seen as being socially irresponsible. It is socially irresponsible that as soon as a service goes out that you are immediately in an emergency. You should not offload basic resiliency on to emergency services. Yes, if you take a direct hit from a tornado you're going to be leaning on emergency services, but the house a quarter mile from touchdown that may be out for three or four days needs to be able to deal with that. If nothing else, emergency supplies are a lot cheaper when it's not an emergency. Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and especially so when perfect is so much more expensive and so much less relevant than the good.
  - munificent 2mo ago
    > It is socially irresponsible that as soon as a service goes out that you are immediately in an emergency. You should not offload basic resiliency on to emergency services. Sure, but that's not a remotely accurate description of a house without a backup battery or generator. I grew up in hurricane country and weathered many bad storms. Losing power does not put you immediately in an emergency. If you don't open the fridge much, your perishables will last a couple of days. Non-perishables will last much longer. Having a battery is the difference between "we can hang out and grill dinner for 5 days before we need to hit the road" and "we can hang out and grill dinner for 6 days before we need to hit the road". That distinction does not significantly change your strategy. Losing water is a much bigger emergency but is thankfully rarer and a backup battery won't help. Climate change will change this story somewhat in the South. If you are in a very hot climate, elderly, or have other health issues, then losing electricity and air conditioning in the summer can be an immediate emergency. Again, though, A/Cs consume so much electricity that a backup battery won't help you much. I think you're significantly overestimating the emergency value of a battery backup. Loss of electricity is rarely a rapid emergency. In cases where it is, a generator will at least give you as much power as you care to store fuel.
isoprophlex 2mo ago
I really get where you're coming from, but I'm approaching this from the ~$1500, 5 kWh battery in TFA, which weights 50-60 kg, should be installed somewhere out of the way in a non-fire-hazardous manner. They're great, they can load-shift a meaningful chunk of daily consumption for most european homes don't just move these around to your freezer. They don't magically make you independent in case of grid failures, it's just not what they're for. And to get the average consumer to adopt these, the messaging about what they can and can't do should be crystal clear.

Aachen 2mo ago

Not necessarily the point. If it provides a normal wall outlet I'm happy to plug essentials around for the one time per 1-2 decades this happens for longer than 4 hours and the fridge/freezer/laptop needs a boost

EvanAnderson 2mo ago
As long as you're not opening the fridge / freezer during the outage (and you have sufficient thermal mass of food in it) you don't need to worry about "boosting" it during a power outage of only 4 hours. I don't recall the rule of thumb off the top of my head, but for at least 6 hours I'd expect the contents of normal fridge / freezer to be just fine (as long as there's thermal mass there).
- jonathanlydall 2mo ago
  Can confirm from years of load shedding in the past in South Africa where my area had 4 hour outages. That duration was tough for various reasons, but fridge and freezer were not really an issue. I was very happy when they changed to 2 hour outages (albeit twice as many), and then even happier with not having load shedding for about 2 years now.
- DontchaKnowit 2mo ago
  They said longer than 4 hours
- Aachen 2mo ago
  Yes, thanks, indeed I'd start doing this *after* 4h if I have such a battery since fridge, freezer, and laptop are all in different places and they'll run for 90 minutes to cool or charge and it's probably not bad to get around to all towards the end of the first day with no stress. It was just an arbitrary starting point really. Freezer contents are also all fine after 24h but maybe some edges got towards the thawing point. I've not tried it out and simply wouldn't care to find out
rtkwe 2mo ago
The issue there is the plug would be on the battery which you're unlikely to have mounted in a convenient location for things like your main fridge, router, and computer. For me all 3 of those are pretty far away from the most likely places I'd put a battery bank. I have a mobile one I keep charged up for emergencies and long power outages and have a small portable solar panel for it for multiday outages.

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]

ssl-3 2mo ago

And the proposed battery solution only works at up to 3kW. My electric range uses more than that, and my water heater, clothes dryer, and aircon each come close. And, sure: I can get by very well with refrigeration, networking, computing and/or TV, and lights during a power outage. But those loads need to be segregated, or it just doesn't work. That adds more expense. And since those segregated loads don't even come anywhere near 3kW, it isn't clear to me how I'm to be maximizing my local use of surplus power events. There are grid-interactive battery solutions from companies like EG4 that can go betwixt the entire house and its grid connection, but this isn't it.

croemer 2mo ago
Why do you need to segregate them? Can't you switch the rest off? Or is the problem that otherwise you'd supply neighbors as well?
- deleted 2mo ago
  [deleted]
- ssl-3 2mo ago
  Just because it's the real world. :) If things aren't segregated and the power goes off while I'm cooking, the aircon is running, the water heater is doing its thing, or whatever, then: I exceed 3kW. 3kW is the maximum that the device can supply. If load exceeds maximum, then something will (must) fail. Hopefully it fails gracefully, but I mean: I've been married before and I understand how terrific and fantastic it can be when things go slightly wrong at home when I'm not around to address them. The less Rube Goldberg my creations are, the more peaceful my life is. (None of this modern name-brand grid-tied stuff is any particular danger to linemen. It won't output anything on those terminals if it doesn't have an AC waveform to synchronize with.)

adolph 2mo ago

The cost/invasiveness of cutover is dropping. There is a relatively new category called "plug in solar" where the inverter/battery is smart enought to detect, sync and use grid power. The Stream system: Connect the device to the grid to enable it to feed power into the grid or draw power from it when solar energy is insufficient. This can be done via a standard home outlet (if permitted), or through a circuit breaker. [0] 0. https://manuals.ecoflow.com/us/product/stream-ultra?lang=en_US https://manuals.ecoflow.com/us/product/stream-ultra?lang=en_...

apercu 2mo ago

I mean, yes and no. Switching your whole house over automatically? Yeah, ok, that can get invasive and expensive. Running an extension cord from a battery/inverter or generator a multiport plug then to to your fridge, router and a couple of lights? That's about 5-10 minutes of effort. There's a pretty massive middle ground between "plug in a battery" and "rewire the house.

bluGill 2mo ago
Switching the whole house is cheap compared to the generator or battery needed to run everything in the house. Of you can't run everything then you may as well have nothing. The important things need a lot of power.
- apercu 2mo ago
  > Of you can't run everything then you may as well have nothing. Who says? Say I need my fridge, freezer, router and a light or two. That's $4k. Whole house? $25-35k. Also, I have a wood burning stove and piles of firewood).

m463 2mo ago

I think you're right -- depending on the country. It seems australia has very low friction and US with our power companies, significantly more - where you going to find an electrician? - do you need someone to design your grid-tie plan? - when will the power company approve your connection? I've had friends wire their house, have to really work to plan the setup, and be stuck with a working system offline while PG&E approves slowly Another point: People might be better served NOT buying a battery, instead getting an EV and wiring it into their house. for example: https://www.tesla.com/powershare/ https://www.tesla.com/powershare/ or just "bidirectional charging" for other brands