3 ms·

I actually really enjoyed the game on day 1! Unfortunately, even with all the updates - they never fixed my main gripe - each planet is just lifeless, and it's

I actually really enjoyed the game on day 1! Unfortunately, even with all the updates - they never fixed my main gripe - each planet is just lifeless, and it's basically the same few square kilometres copy and pasted over the whole planet (I'm about 120h played). I wished they somehow made it more exciting to explore.

enraged_camel 1mo ago
I think that's the limit of procedural generation. What you're asking for probably requires gen-AI or similar.
- laughing_man 1mo ago
  When I was younger I was really excited about procedural generation, because it seemed like a way to give games replayability. And it does do that for certain types of strategy and builder games, e.g. MOO2 or Factorio. But, so far at least, it really doesn't work for first person games. You end up with a universe that's seemingly, but also endlessly boring.
  - ajmurmann 1mo ago
    I used to quite enjoy exploring in Minecraft though.
- ux266478 1mo ago
  You can do really complex and interesting stuff with procedural generation, even at-scale. You need a large breadth of well-designed rules, and then you need temporal simulation over that breadth. That simulated history is just as important as having a lot of high quality rules when you want to create a living, breathing world. Ultima Ratio Regum is an example of how important this time aspect really is, that a place needs to have a history. The real limitation is that virtual worlds get boring. It really doesn't matter how sophisticated they are. Generative AI can't help with that. It's not a problem of the structure, or needing some additional variety, or more sophisticated set of constraints. It's the simple fact that while you can day dream about endlessly flying around a galaxy, landing on planets, eventually it just becomes rote. It's a normal biological process of adaptation and normalization. Like how when you first move somewhere, everything is fresh and full of potential, and then 3 years on everything that was novel and cool has become just background noise.
  - margalabargala 1mo ago
    > You can do really complex and interesting stuff with procedural generation, even at-scale. You need a large breadth of well-designed rules, and then you need temporal simulation over that breadth. That simulated history is just as important as having a lot of high quality rules when you want to create a living, breathing world. Ultima Ratio Regum is an example of how important this time aspect really is, that a place needs to have a history. Dwarf Fortress also does an excellent job of this
  - deleted 1mo ago
    [deleted]
- vkou 1mo ago
  The problem isn't the quality of proc-gen. The problem is that every gameplay loop roughly consists of 'scan for a thing in a proc-gen world, then click on it.' Improving the quality of the proc-gen won't fix that. This is a high-tech sci-fi setting! This gameplay space should have been the dev's oyster! Have resources which can be pinpointed with the scanner! Have ones that you have to triangulate the location of! Have clouds that you'd be collecting via ramscoop! Have drones following your ship! Set up a mining station! Mini-games for dealing with alien tech. More ruins and salvage opportunities than just that one species of aliens! Capture animals for questgivers! Have the actual experience of flying not be an on-rails theme park ride that's fun about twice. I could go on and on. This obviously costs money and time. But without it, you get a 'game' that's as wide as an ocean, and shallower than a puddle.
  - dvh 1mo ago
    "Every quest is a fetch quest"
- dismalaf 1mo ago
  There's no such thing as a limit of "procedural generation". It's a limit of the choices they made. Look at something like DF or Rimworld - they generate pretty dense worlds with plenty of lore and things to see. Whereas Minecraft and No Man's Sky just go for physical dimensions with little content.
squigz 1mo ago
Have you played somewhat recently? They've had a few expeditions that addressed variety in planets.
maxlin 1mo ago
Same. Played thru the original version. The overall vibe of the game was great and incredibly polished for a game half done, but yeah it was stretched very thin and started to lose feeling after a while. That said,idk if I would like the fame at all now. Base building seems antithetical to the original nomad-like setting. And there's only loss to have adding identity to the protagonist after having played it as "yourself"
seanalltogether 1mo ago
And apparently this is one of the main criticisms of Starfield. The Bethesda designers either never played No Mans Sky to understand the problem, or they simply believed a large enough budget could mask these problems.
- Ancalagon 1mo ago
  Starfield is also just such a freaking grind compared to their other games
ratelimitsteve 1mo ago
I'm also a day one NMS enthusiast. I thought I was the only one. I can definitely agree with your critique, and I think the difference was in how I played it. On release day it was basically a really pretty tech demo. You couldn't really die/fail in any meaningful way unless you tried to. But wandering the universe in a goals-agnostic sort of way, looking for different types of exocritters, learning the different alien words and doing some resource gathering/trading was satisfying enough as a second screen experience. Much like when I play American Truck Simulator, or when I focus on cargo hauling in elite dangerous, it's just kinda something to keep my hands busy while I listen to a podcast or documentary or just sit and bullshit with my wife.

enraged_camel 1mo ago

I think that's the limit of procedural generation. What you're asking for probably requires gen-AI or similar.

laughing_man 1mo ago
When I was younger I was really excited about procedural generation, because it seemed like a way to give games replayability. And it does do that for certain types of strategy and builder games, e.g. MOO2 or Factorio. But, so far at least, it really doesn't work for first person games. You end up with a universe that's seemingly, but also endlessly boring.
- ajmurmann 1mo ago
  I used to quite enjoy exploring in Minecraft though.
ux266478 1mo ago
You can do really complex and interesting stuff with procedural generation, even at-scale. You need a large breadth of well-designed rules, and then you need temporal simulation over that breadth. That simulated history is just as important as having a lot of high quality rules when you want to create a living, breathing world. Ultima Ratio Regum is an example of how important this time aspect really is, that a place needs to have a history. The real limitation is that virtual worlds get boring. It really doesn't matter how sophisticated they are. Generative AI can't help with that. It's not a problem of the structure, or needing some additional variety, or more sophisticated set of constraints. It's the simple fact that while you can day dream about endlessly flying around a galaxy, landing on planets, eventually it just becomes rote. It's a normal biological process of adaptation and normalization. Like how when you first move somewhere, everything is fresh and full of potential, and then 3 years on everything that was novel and cool has become just background noise.
- margalabargala 1mo ago
  > You can do really complex and interesting stuff with procedural generation, even at-scale. You need a large breadth of well-designed rules, and then you need temporal simulation over that breadth. That simulated history is just as important as having a lot of high quality rules when you want to create a living, breathing world. Ultima Ratio Regum is an example of how important this time aspect really is, that a place needs to have a history. Dwarf Fortress also does an excellent job of this
- deleted 1mo ago
  [deleted]
vkou 1mo ago
The problem isn't the quality of proc-gen. The problem is that every gameplay loop roughly consists of 'scan for a thing in a proc-gen world, then click on it.' Improving the quality of the proc-gen won't fix that. This is a high-tech sci-fi setting! This gameplay space should have been the dev's oyster! Have resources which can be pinpointed with the scanner! Have ones that you have to triangulate the location of! Have clouds that you'd be collecting via ramscoop! Have drones following your ship! Set up a mining station! Mini-games for dealing with alien tech. More ruins and salvage opportunities than just that one species of aliens! Capture animals for questgivers! Have the actual experience of flying not be an on-rails theme park ride that's fun about twice. I could go on and on. This obviously costs money and time. But without it, you get a 'game' that's as wide as an ocean, and shallower than a puddle.
- dvh 1mo ago
  "Every quest is a fetch quest"
dismalaf 1mo ago
There's no such thing as a limit of "procedural generation". It's a limit of the choices they made. Look at something like DF or Rimworld - they generate pretty dense worlds with plenty of lore and things to see. Whereas Minecraft and No Man's Sky just go for physical dimensions with little content.

squigz 1mo ago

Have you played somewhat recently? They've had a few expeditions that addressed variety in planets.

maxlin 1mo ago

Same. Played thru the original version. The overall vibe of the game was great and incredibly polished for a game half done, but yeah it was stretched very thin and started to lose feeling after a while. That said,idk if I would like the fame at all now. Base building seems antithetical to the original nomad-like setting. And there's only loss to have adding identity to the protagonist after having played it as "yourself"

seanalltogether 1mo ago

And apparently this is one of the main criticisms of Starfield. The Bethesda designers either never played No Mans Sky to understand the problem, or they simply believed a large enough budget could mask these problems.

Ancalagon 1mo ago
Starfield is also just such a freaking grind compared to their other games

ratelimitsteve 1mo ago

I'm also a day one NMS enthusiast. I thought I was the only one. I can definitely agree with your critique, and I think the difference was in how I played it. On release day it was basically a really pretty tech demo. You couldn't really die/fail in any meaningful way unless you tried to. But wandering the universe in a goals-agnostic sort of way, looking for different types of exocritters, learning the different alien words and doing some resource gathering/trading was satisfying enough as a second screen experience. Much like when I play American Truck Simulator, or when I focus on cargo hauling in elite dangerous, it's just kinda something to keep my hands busy while I listen to a podcast or documentary or just sit and bullshit with my wife.