3 ms·

It's fascinating to me what you're describing. That ISA prevalence basically comes down to the anarchy of the market, and theoretical differences in the actual

It's fascinating to me what you're describing. That ISA prevalence basically comes down to the anarchy of the market, and theoretical differences in the actual design don't really factor in. Is this true? Can we analyse the reasons we expect RISC-V to have better performance, and possibly even extrapolate that to a theoretically even better ISA and skip over RISC-V entirely?

strenholme 2mo ago
Getting RISC-V to have better performance is a matter of in-chip optimizations (caches, pipelines, etc.) and high quality performance oriented fabs. The dominance of x86 after the dot-com bubble popped shows that one can get incredible performance even from an ISA which is a hack on top of a hack on top of another hack. [1] In terms of a “theoretically even better ISA”, if anyone has any proposals, I would love to see links to them. In particular, the article “RISC-V: They Should Have Known Better” does not propose an ISA (except mentioning that the author feels AArch64 is much better), so I find its criticisms dubious. [1] I will make one ISA propsal: x86_64 should have had 32 instead of 16 registers, but 16 registers at least is quite a bit better than the 4-8 registers the 386 had.
- jackb4040 2mo ago
  But is there any article / papers / field of study that explores the theoretical maximum of various architectures, given infinite resources? Do they begin to converge, such that a highly optimized Arm looks similar to a highly optimized RISC-V core? If we are near / past the point of diminishing returns for x86, how mathematically rigorous is our proof of that?
- anon-3988 2mo ago
  > [1] I will make one ISA propsal: x86_64 should have had 32 instead of 16 registers, but 16 registers at least is quite a bit better than the 4-8 registers the 386 had. Is "registers" still a real thing or its just an illusion at this point? I am pretty sure there are "virtual" registers or micro instructions (something like that, I forgot the terminology)
  - inkyoto 2mo ago
    Registers are very much real, and their number being available at the ISA level will continue to matter regardless of the actual number of shadow registers. Being able to store, e.g. 10 vs 5, local variables in a larger register file has performance implications[0] strong enough to consider larger register files an advantage. [0] The reduced number of memory-to-CPU and vice versa data transfers for transient computation results.
  - RetroTechie 2mo ago
    > Is "registers" still a real thing or its just an illusion at this point? I am pretty sure there are "virtual" registers or micro instructions (something like that, I forgot the terminology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_renaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_renaming ? But yes, register count is still a thing. Why? If you run out of registers, operations 'spill out' into main memory. Read: L1 (data) cache. Which is fast, but not as fast as CPU registers. And probably uses a lot more transistors & power. Of course there's limits to that due to # of opcode bits available (eg. 32 regs, 3-operand instruction -> 15 bits needed to encode source & target registers).
    - anon-3988 2mo ago
      > But yes, register count is still a thing. Why? If you run out of registers, operations 'spill out' into main memory. Read: L1 (data) cache. Which is fast, but not as fast as CPU registers. And probably uses a lot more transistors & power. Yes, register renaming. What I mean is that why does anyone care still what instruction I am running on? The CPU have its own microops, instruction decoder, its own pipeline, scheduler, etc etc Why can't you have a CPU that have 1024 registers and pretend that it only have 32?
      - peterfirefly 2mo ago
        1024 is stretching it a bit but several hundred are normal for high-end CPUs -- while pretending to have 32 (+ usually 32 SIMD registers that may or may not overlap with the normal 32). "[...] and pretend that it only have [sic] 32" is EXACTLY what register renaming is.
- hajile 2mo ago
  > I will make one ISA propsal: x86_64 should have had 32 instead of 16 registers APX proposes exactly this along with 3-register syntax and some other things. There are two big issues IMO. 1. It will take at least 15 years before most software ships with this because unlike something like AVX where you typically just rewrite a small part of your code that needs AVX, APX requires a 100% rewrite to take advantage. 2. APX instructions require an additional byte each time you use them compared to current instructions. I think there are still savings to be found, but they won't be as big as it might seem at first. Lack of serious incentive combined with decades-long rollout seems a recipe for non-adoption at a time when RISC chips offer these features now.

strenholme 2mo ago

Getting RISC-V to have better performance is a matter of in-chip optimizations (caches, pipelines, etc.) and high quality performance oriented fabs. The dominance of x86 after the dot-com bubble popped shows that one can get incredible performance even from an ISA which is a hack on top of a hack on top of another hack. [1] In terms of a “theoretically even better ISA”, if anyone has any proposals, I would love to see links to them. In particular, the article “RISC-V: They Should Have Known Better” does not propose an ISA (except mentioning that the author feels AArch64 is much better), so I find its criticisms dubious. [1] I will make one ISA propsal: x86_64 should have had 32 instead of 16 registers, but 16 registers at least is quite a bit better than the 4-8 registers the 386 had.

jackb4040 2mo ago
But is there any article / papers / field of study that explores the theoretical maximum of various architectures, given infinite resources? Do they begin to converge, such that a highly optimized Arm looks similar to a highly optimized RISC-V core? If we are near / past the point of diminishing returns for x86, how mathematically rigorous is our proof of that?
anon-3988 2mo ago
> [1] I will make one ISA propsal: x86_64 should have had 32 instead of 16 registers, but 16 registers at least is quite a bit better than the 4-8 registers the 386 had. Is "registers" still a real thing or its just an illusion at this point? I am pretty sure there are "virtual" registers or micro instructions (something like that, I forgot the terminology)
- inkyoto 2mo ago
  Registers are very much real, and their number being available at the ISA level will continue to matter regardless of the actual number of shadow registers. Being able to store, e.g. 10 vs 5, local variables in a larger register file has performance implications[0] strong enough to consider larger register files an advantage. [0] The reduced number of memory-to-CPU and vice versa data transfers for transient computation results.
- RetroTechie 2mo ago
  > Is "registers" still a real thing or its just an illusion at this point? I am pretty sure there are "virtual" registers or micro instructions (something like that, I forgot the terminology) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_renaming https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Register_renaming ? But yes, register count is still a thing. Why? If you run out of registers, operations 'spill out' into main memory. Read: L1 (data) cache. Which is fast, but not as fast as CPU registers. And probably uses a lot more transistors & power. Of course there's limits to that due to # of opcode bits available (eg. 32 regs, 3-operand instruction -> 15 bits needed to encode source & target registers).
  - anon-3988 2mo ago
    > But yes, register count is still a thing. Why? If you run out of registers, operations 'spill out' into main memory. Read: L1 (data) cache. Which is fast, but not as fast as CPU registers. And probably uses a lot more transistors & power. Yes, register renaming. What I mean is that why does anyone care still what instruction I am running on? The CPU have its own microops, instruction decoder, its own pipeline, scheduler, etc etc Why can't you have a CPU that have 1024 registers and pretend that it only have 32?
    - peterfirefly 2mo ago
      1024 is stretching it a bit but several hundred are normal for high-end CPUs -- while pretending to have 32 (+ usually 32 SIMD registers that may or may not overlap with the normal 32). "[...] and pretend that it only have [sic] 32" is EXACTLY what register renaming is.
hajile 2mo ago
> I will make one ISA propsal: x86_64 should have had 32 instead of 16 registers APX proposes exactly this along with 3-register syntax and some other things. There are two big issues IMO. 1. It will take at least 15 years before most software ships with this because unlike something like AVX where you typically just rewrite a small part of your code that needs AVX, APX requires a 100% rewrite to take advantage. 2. APX instructions require an additional byte each time you use them compared to current instructions. I think there are still savings to be found, but they won't be as big as it might seem at first. Lack of serious incentive combined with decades-long rollout seems a recipe for non-adoption at a time when RISC chips offer these features now.