3 ms·

No, every one participates. Ordinary people the most, because the capitalist first and foremost need to provide value to us. I'm not sure what do you mean by ri

by nec4b 2mo ago

No, every one participates. Ordinary people the most, because the capitalist first and foremost need to provide value to us. I'm not sure what do you mean by rivers, glaciers or others not participating in the market? Isn't it evident people assign great value to natural resources. The world is a bit older then 120 years in your graph. There were a lot of natural disasters that wiped quite a lot of living beings from the planet.

vrganj 2mo ago
> No, every one participates. Ordinary people the most That is just straight up not true. The tribal elder in the Amazon, who's forest capitalists are burning down never got asked how he defines value. The child not yet born was never asked if it's atmosphere should be heated up for data centers. Neither was the fish in the river or the river itself for that matter. > what do you mean by rivers, glaciers or others not participating in the market? I'm not sure what's unclear. The glacier melts as a result of somebody who's not the glacier deciding "value" on a market. In reality, the market doesn't decide value. Value is not price. The market decides power structures and violence distribution. The glacier has a value completely separate from the market, and not derived from it. > There were a lot of natural disasters Why are we pivoting to natural disasters now?
- nec4b 2mo ago
  How exactly can you ask an unborn child, a river or a glacier what it wants? Did the Yugoslav dictator ask Kosovars what they want before violently oppressing them?
  - vrganj 2mo ago
    That is precisely the point - you can't! I'm glad we got to this shared understanding in the end. So I'd appreciate if we stopped pretending the market did, when it fails to account for anything that's not somebody with money. How could it possibly assign "value" that way?
    - nec4b 2mo ago
      So which economical system enables us to talk to inanimate objects or unborn babies, since you think this is a fault of capitalism? You have a deep misunderstanding of markets and capitalism!

by nec4b 2mo ago

vrganj 2mo ago

> No, every one participates. Ordinary people the most That is just straight up not true. The tribal elder in the Amazon, who's forest capitalists are burning down never got asked how he defines value. The child not yet born was never asked if it's atmosphere should be heated up for data centers. Neither was the fish in the river or the river itself for that matter. > what do you mean by rivers, glaciers or others not participating in the market? I'm not sure what's unclear. The glacier melts as a result of somebody who's not the glacier deciding "value" on a market. In reality, the market doesn't decide value. Value is not price. The market decides power structures and violence distribution. The glacier has a value completely separate from the market, and not derived from it. > There were a lot of natural disasters Why are we pivoting to natural disasters now?

nec4b 2mo ago
How exactly can you ask an unborn child, a river or a glacier what it wants? Did the Yugoslav dictator ask Kosovars what they want before violently oppressing them?
- vrganj 2mo ago
  That is precisely the point - you can't! I'm glad we got to this shared understanding in the end. So I'd appreciate if we stopped pretending the market did, when it fails to account for anything that's not somebody with money. How could it possibly assign "value" that way?
  - nec4b 2mo ago
    So which economical system enables us to talk to inanimate objects or unborn babies, since you think this is a fault of capitalism? You have a deep misunderstanding of markets and capitalism!