4 ms·

I was shocked by the price, too. I mean a motor and a battery can't be so expensive, especially such a "small" battery (300Wh). That being said, having driven

I was shocked by the price, too. I mean a motor and a battery can't be so expensive, especially such a "small" battery (300Wh). That being said, having driven electric bikes for a while, here in France they're ridiculously limited in speed and power. 25km/h limit on flat land usually makes sense (except on long straight lines), but when you get climbing even slightly you get down to ~10km/h and have to provide more effort. I guess that's where the 750/1250W 70Nm unrestrained motor comes in handy, and if you live in a place with lots of small hills the choice is either that kind of motor or a car, not the 1000€-total Decathlon/Carrefour electric bike.

bramblerose 2mo ago
In my experience the issue is one of torque, not of power. Most cheaper electric bicycles (including most Decathlon models) have a hub-mounted motor which cannot deliver power effectively at low speeds -> it stops assisting when you most need it. For hilly terrain you need a motor that's mounted on the crankshaft so that it can take advantage of the gears. To compare: a tour de france runner outputs 400-500W on mountain climbs while keeping up to 20-25km/h. So a 500W motor (plus 100W power output from yourself) should be enough for smaller climbs!
- DonHopkins 2mo ago
  My Koga has an Enviolo stepless bicycle automatic transmission, which frees me from thinking about shifting, so I can pay more attention to riding safely and effortlessly. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48761621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48761621 DonHopkins 44 days ago | root | parent | prev | next [–] Enviolo stepless bicycle automatic transmission (never manually shift again, accelerate while continuously shifting under load), with a carbon fiber belt drive (maintainance free, silent, never get grease on your pants or hands again), and Bosch Performance Line mid-motor (strong zippy performance from the geniuses who paid a €90 million fine for Dieselgate), plus GPS tracker with "recovery service" (required for insurance). https://enviolo.com/ https://enviolo.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQrgKBQrkag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQrgKBQrkag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI https://www.koga.com/en/enviolo-gear-hub https://www.koga.com/en/enviolo-gear-hub https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/e-bikes/evia-pro-automatic?frame=D https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/e-bikes/evia-pro-automatic?fra... It's a dream bike, optimized for comfort and city riding, but Koga is not available in the US, though. Here's an American bike that has similar features (not as nice as the high-end Koga Evia Pro Automatic though), the Harley Davidson Rush/CTY (step through model is easiest to mount/unmount/ride): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SjN8RN9g7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SjN8RN9g7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoX9S5UhETE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoX9S5UhETE https://serial1.nl/ https://serial1.nl/ The Enviolo Automatic also come in a heavy duty version paired with high performance motors for bakfiets (cargo bikes), for 3-4 children, big dogs, and groceries: https://batavus.com/en-nl/products/fier-3-bbfn3 https://batavus.com/en-nl/products/fier-3-bbfn3 https://www.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-d https://www.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-d... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal Edit: Fair, they're ideal for city bikes, stop-and-go traffic, and the flat Dutch landscape where they're produced, where the biggest "mountains" you encounter are the bridges over canals. Their city model has 310%, trekking 380%, and the new utility hub has 400% gear range, which you can use on a normal bike, bakfiets, or speed pedelec. https://enviolo.com/news/enviolo-launches-the-utility-hub/ https://enviolo.com/news/enviolo-launches-the-utility-hub/
  - skeeter2020 2mo ago
    >> so I can pay more attention to riding safely and effortlessly. If shifting gears takes to much of your attention, I'm concerned for all of us, and why do you need to pay more attention to riding "effortlessly"?
    - DonHopkins 2mo ago
      Simple. There is this thing in psychology called "Cognitive Load". Automatic transmissions and continuous transmissions reduce it. That's why most people don't drive a stick shifted manual transmission car any more. It works the same for bikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load Have you ever ridden a bike with a geared derailleur, and forgotten to shift into low gear at an intersection, or had to suddenly stop before you had a chance to shift into low gear, so it's more difficult getting started again? Did you notice how it's impossible to shift while you're stopped, and how tricky it is to get it from high back into low while you're starting, especially up hill, and how you can't shift while you're applying force, so you have to push yourself forward instead of pedaling to get it rolling enough to downshift while gently pedaling without accelerating? A continuous hub fixes those problems, and an automatic transmission shifts you into low when you stop (even if you're not moving), and smoothly and continuously shifts back up while you're accelerating, and the continuous hub allows you to apply power while it's shifting (note I didn't say "changing gears" -- it's continuous, and doesn't have gears. It has planets and fluid instead. It can shift while it's stopped, and accelerate while it's shifting. You have a lot more important things to worry about when you're accelerating from a stop at a busy intersection than pushing off and shifting without applying acceleration and only pedaling forcefully once you've finished shifting into low gear. If you're riding a bakfiets (cargo bike) with your kids and a dog in the box, then you definitely have things you need to worry about more than shifting gears, and because of the mass and precious cargo, it's even more important to be able to accelerate from a stop without performing a derailleur dance in the middle of a busy intersection. It's a trick you have to learn just like using the parking break when starting a manual transmission car facing up hill. Manual transmissions have a much higher cognitive load in both cars and bikes. This kind of stuff should be intuitive if you've ever ridden a bike with more than one gear, or driven a stick shift car. Sure it gives you "more control", but more control = higher cognative load, and you're probably not a NASCAR race car driver who needs to optimize for control. It's all explained here: https://enviolo.com/products/ https://enviolo.com/products/ The Enviolo stepless CVP technology explained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI Is enviolo the best internally geared hub for eBikes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vob5Rb4IKsw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vob5Rb4IKsw He talks about shifting when you're stopped at 2:32.
bendews 2mo ago
I have a heap of ebikes, all 250w and 25km/h limited. A Bosch performance line motor on a MTB going up a steep hill is effortless compared to a budget shimano motor where it can barely make it up no matter how much effort you put in to pedalling. Torque makes a big difference.
- Toutouxc 2mo ago
  I’ll add that none of these motors are actually “250 W” in any meaningful sense. That’s just the nominal figure, the average power over something like 30 minutes. That’s why there are such differences between the lines and makes of e-bike motors, even though they’re all legal and within the 250W limit.
  - revax 2mo ago
    Exactly, the Bosch Performance Line motor can reach up to +600W for a brief period of time
RugnirViking 2mo ago
> a motor and a battery can't be so expensive In my experience with electric motors, yeah I can absolutely believe it. Electric motors aren't cheap!
- Toutouxc 2mo ago
  [dead]
ciupicri 2mo ago
The whole European Union has that limit. Without it it's not an electric bicycle anymore, it's a moped or electric motorcycle, that sort of thing, and you have to register it, have a driving license and so on.
- socalgal2 2mo ago
  do they enforce it? California has similar laws but they are not enforced. People ride 40mph (64kph) down bicycle trails and bicycle lanes. And, they still ride like most cyclists here, ignoring red lines, stop signs, and all other traffic laws.
  - bdavbdav 2mo ago
    In London (not EU sadly but…), yes. They have checkpoints on bridges.
  - draugadrotten 2mo ago
    Yes, it is enforced, at least in cities (except for no-go areas of course) They also are very rough on distributors. Just a few quick examples, you can find more with your favourite AI/search engine 16500 bikes confiscated - https://www.ilent.nl/actueel/nieuws/2024/09/12/ilt-legt-beslag-op-ruim-16.500-fatbikes https://www.ilent.nl/actueel/nieuws/2024/09/12/ilt-legt-besl... https://nos.nl/artikel/2483770-inspectie-waarschuwt-voor-illegaal-opvoeren-fatbikes https://nos.nl/artikel/2483770-inspectie-waarschuwt-voor-ill... https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1ndpf3z/i_just_paid_2750_fine_for_a_750w_ebike_so_you_dont/ https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1ndpf3z/i_just_pai... https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/sep/04/britains-e-bike-boom-desperation-delivery-drivers-and-unthinkable-danger https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/sep/04/britain...
  - ciupicri 2mo ago
    The Romanian police is kind of lazy and does not enforce a lot of other things like cars or motorcycles using the bicycle lanes, cars parked on pedestrian crossings which hide pedestrians from drivers etc. Though sometimes they take action. They also organize prevention PR stunts where they check lots of people passing by.
oblio 2mo ago
> but when you get climbing even slightly you get down to ~10km/h and have to provide more effort I've ridden bikes with Bosch 65Nm motors and with a 80kg rider plus 20kg of cargo they're perfectly fine even up steep hills. As in 18kmph or more with only a moderate amount of effort from the rider. Your bike was really underpowered (50Nm?).
Yizahi 2mo ago
Not a single country in the EU limits a speed or power of the EV motorcycles. They do limit these vehicles to an appropriate places which are called "roads" and do require a proper vehicle license and registration. A person can ride their Suicide Killer 9000 Pro Max with any motor power and any speed in the whole EU area really, no problem. On. A. Damn. Road. Where. It. Belongs.
- dwedge 2mo ago
  Any sources for the whole EU not having speed limits on roads, restricting ebikes to roads only or not having restrictions on power?
  - andrewaylett 2mo ago
    There's a big difference between an "ebike" and an electric motorbike. Ebikes are pedal assist, power limited, and limited to only assist up to a certain speed. You can go as fast as you're able, but if you're above (commonly) 25km/h the motor won't help you. They're allowed anywhere you're allowed a non-assisted bicycle. Electric motorbikes may be limited by the manufacturer in order to achieve a certain license class, but once you get past the low power classes, they're only as limited as their petrol cousins. They're only allowed on roads. Any middle ground, including things that look like bicycles but don't require the rider to peddle, fall either into the "electric motorbike" category or into the "not roadworthy" category. Riding them without a proper license, insurance, and equipment is illegal. Somewhat unfortunately, much of the press seems to want to class the non-roadworthy motorised vehicles as a special case of "ebike" rather than the general case of "motorbike". (And to your first point: yes there are speed limits but it's fairly common for cars and motorbikes to be able to go much faster than the limit. In first gear, even, for motorbikes.)
f6v 2mo ago
I climb hills at 25km/h with zero effort (with a strong wind) on Ecoride Ambassador.

bramblerose 2mo ago

In my experience the issue is one of torque, not of power. Most cheaper electric bicycles (including most Decathlon models) have a hub-mounted motor which cannot deliver power effectively at low speeds -> it stops assisting when you most need it. For hilly terrain you need a motor that's mounted on the crankshaft so that it can take advantage of the gears. To compare: a tour de france runner outputs 400-500W on mountain climbs while keeping up to 20-25km/h. So a 500W motor (plus 100W power output from yourself) should be enough for smaller climbs!

DonHopkins 2mo ago
My Koga has an Enviolo stepless bicycle automatic transmission, which frees me from thinking about shifting, so I can pay more attention to riding safely and effortlessly. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48761621 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48761621 DonHopkins 44 days ago | root | parent | prev | next [–] Enviolo stepless bicycle automatic transmission (never manually shift again, accelerate while continuously shifting under load), with a carbon fiber belt drive (maintainance free, silent, never get grease on your pants or hands again), and Bosch Performance Line mid-motor (strong zippy performance from the geniuses who paid a €90 million fine for Dieselgate), plus GPS tracker with "recovery service" (required for insurance). https://enviolo.com/ https://enviolo.com/ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQrgKBQrkag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQrgKBQrkag https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI https://www.koga.com/en/enviolo-gear-hub https://www.koga.com/en/enviolo-gear-hub https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/e-bikes/evia-pro-automatic?frame=D https://www.koga.com/en/bikes/e-bikes/evia-pro-automatic?fra... It's a dream bike, optimized for comfort and city riding, but Koga is not available in the US, though. Here's an American bike that has similar features (not as nice as the high-end Koga Evia Pro Automatic though), the Harley Davidson Rush/CTY (step through model is easiest to mount/unmount/ride): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SjN8RN9g7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4SjN8RN9g7Y https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoX9S5UhETE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KoX9S5UhETE https://serial1.nl/ https://serial1.nl/ The Enviolo Automatic also come in a heavy duty version paired with high performance motors for bakfiets (cargo bikes), for 3-4 children, big dogs, and groceries: https://batavus.com/en-nl/products/fier-3-bbfn3 https://batavus.com/en-nl/products/fier-3-bbfn3 https://www.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-d https://www.dw.com/en/bosch-pays-90-million-euro-fine-over-d... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_emissions_scandal Edit: Fair, they're ideal for city bikes, stop-and-go traffic, and the flat Dutch landscape where they're produced, where the biggest "mountains" you encounter are the bridges over canals. Their city model has 310%, trekking 380%, and the new utility hub has 400% gear range, which you can use on a normal bike, bakfiets, or speed pedelec. https://enviolo.com/news/enviolo-launches-the-utility-hub/ https://enviolo.com/news/enviolo-launches-the-utility-hub/
- skeeter2020 2mo ago
  >> so I can pay more attention to riding safely and effortlessly. If shifting gears takes to much of your attention, I'm concerned for all of us, and why do you need to pay more attention to riding "effortlessly"?
  - DonHopkins 2mo ago
    Simple. There is this thing in psychology called "Cognitive Load". Automatic transmissions and continuous transmissions reduce it. That's why most people don't drive a stick shifted manual transmission car any more. It works the same for bikes. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_load Have you ever ridden a bike with a geared derailleur, and forgotten to shift into low gear at an intersection, or had to suddenly stop before you had a chance to shift into low gear, so it's more difficult getting started again? Did you notice how it's impossible to shift while you're stopped, and how tricky it is to get it from high back into low while you're starting, especially up hill, and how you can't shift while you're applying force, so you have to push yourself forward instead of pedaling to get it rolling enough to downshift while gently pedaling without accelerating? A continuous hub fixes those problems, and an automatic transmission shifts you into low when you stop (even if you're not moving), and smoothly and continuously shifts back up while you're accelerating, and the continuous hub allows you to apply power while it's shifting (note I didn't say "changing gears" -- it's continuous, and doesn't have gears. It has planets and fluid instead. It can shift while it's stopped, and accelerate while it's shifting. You have a lot more important things to worry about when you're accelerating from a stop at a busy intersection than pushing off and shifting without applying acceleration and only pedaling forcefully once you've finished shifting into low gear. If you're riding a bakfiets (cargo bike) with your kids and a dog in the box, then you definitely have things you need to worry about more than shifting gears, and because of the mass and precious cargo, it's even more important to be able to accelerate from a stop without performing a derailleur dance in the middle of a busy intersection. It's a trick you have to learn just like using the parking break when starting a manual transmission car facing up hill. Manual transmissions have a much higher cognitive load in both cars and bikes. This kind of stuff should be intuitive if you've ever ridden a bike with more than one gear, or driven a stick shift car. Sure it gives you "more control", but more control = higher cognative load, and you're probably not a NASCAR race car driver who needs to optimize for control. It's all explained here: https://enviolo.com/products/ https://enviolo.com/products/ The Enviolo stepless CVP technology explained: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6xY2S-9gjHI Is enviolo the best internally geared hub for eBikes? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vob5Rb4IKsw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vob5Rb4IKsw He talks about shifting when you're stopped at 2:32.

bendews 2mo ago

I have a heap of ebikes, all 250w and 25km/h limited. A Bosch performance line motor on a MTB going up a steep hill is effortless compared to a budget shimano motor where it can barely make it up no matter how much effort you put in to pedalling. Torque makes a big difference.

Toutouxc 2mo ago
I’ll add that none of these motors are actually “250 W” in any meaningful sense. That’s just the nominal figure, the average power over something like 30 minutes. That’s why there are such differences between the lines and makes of e-bike motors, even though they’re all legal and within the 250W limit.
- revax 2mo ago
  Exactly, the Bosch Performance Line motor can reach up to +600W for a brief period of time

RugnirViking 2mo ago

> a motor and a battery can't be so expensive In my experience with electric motors, yeah I can absolutely believe it. Electric motors aren't cheap!

Toutouxc 2mo ago
[dead]

ciupicri 2mo ago

The whole European Union has that limit. Without it it's not an electric bicycle anymore, it's a moped or electric motorcycle, that sort of thing, and you have to register it, have a driving license and so on.

socalgal2 2mo ago
do they enforce it? California has similar laws but they are not enforced. People ride 40mph (64kph) down bicycle trails and bicycle lanes. And, they still ride like most cyclists here, ignoring red lines, stop signs, and all other traffic laws.
- bdavbdav 2mo ago
  In London (not EU sadly but…), yes. They have checkpoints on bridges.
- draugadrotten 2mo ago
  Yes, it is enforced, at least in cities (except for no-go areas of course) They also are very rough on distributors. Just a few quick examples, you can find more with your favourite AI/search engine 16500 bikes confiscated - https://www.ilent.nl/actueel/nieuws/2024/09/12/ilt-legt-beslag-op-ruim-16.500-fatbikes https://www.ilent.nl/actueel/nieuws/2024/09/12/ilt-legt-besl... https://nos.nl/artikel/2483770-inspectie-waarschuwt-voor-illegaal-opvoeren-fatbikes https://nos.nl/artikel/2483770-inspectie-waarschuwt-voor-ill... https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1ndpf3z/i_just_paid_2750_fine_for_a_750w_ebike_so_you_dont/ https://www.reddit.com/r/germany/comments/1ndpf3z/i_just_pai... https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/sep/04/britains-e-bike-boom-desperation-delivery-drivers-and-unthinkable-danger https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/sep/04/britain...
- ciupicri 2mo ago
  The Romanian police is kind of lazy and does not enforce a lot of other things like cars or motorcycles using the bicycle lanes, cars parked on pedestrian crossings which hide pedestrians from drivers etc. Though sometimes they take action. They also organize prevention PR stunts where they check lots of people passing by.

oblio 2mo ago

> but when you get climbing even slightly you get down to ~10km/h and have to provide more effort I've ridden bikes with Bosch 65Nm motors and with a 80kg rider plus 20kg of cargo they're perfectly fine even up steep hills. As in 18kmph or more with only a moderate amount of effort from the rider. Your bike was really underpowered (50Nm?).

Yizahi 2mo ago

Not a single country in the EU limits a speed or power of the EV motorcycles. They do limit these vehicles to an appropriate places which are called "roads" and do require a proper vehicle license and registration. A person can ride their Suicide Killer 9000 Pro Max with any motor power and any speed in the whole EU area really, no problem. On. A. Damn. Road. Where. It. Belongs.

dwedge 2mo ago
Any sources for the whole EU not having speed limits on roads, restricting ebikes to roads only or not having restrictions on power?
- andrewaylett 2mo ago
  There's a big difference between an "ebike" and an electric motorbike. Ebikes are pedal assist, power limited, and limited to only assist up to a certain speed. You can go as fast as you're able, but if you're above (commonly) 25km/h the motor won't help you. They're allowed anywhere you're allowed a non-assisted bicycle. Electric motorbikes may be limited by the manufacturer in order to achieve a certain license class, but once you get past the low power classes, they're only as limited as their petrol cousins. They're only allowed on roads. Any middle ground, including things that look like bicycles but don't require the rider to peddle, fall either into the "electric motorbike" category or into the "not roadworthy" category. Riding them without a proper license, insurance, and equipment is illegal. Somewhat unfortunately, much of the press seems to want to class the non-roadworthy motorised vehicles as a special case of "ebike" rather than the general case of "motorbike". (And to your first point: yes there are speed limits but it's fairly common for cars and motorbikes to be able to go much faster than the limit. In first gear, even, for motorbikes.)

f6v 2mo ago

I climb hills at 25km/h with zero effort (with a strong wind) on Ecoride Ambassador.