4 ms·

>such mass murders are simply the price of the freedom to have guns. This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty

>such mass murders are simply the price of the freedom to have guns. This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty much all eligible males have guns in their homes) and don't have anything remotely like the gun murder rate of the US. Micheal Moore made "Bowling for Columbine" to prove that the reason for the violence was guns themselves. By the end of the his movie, he didn't seem to believe it anymore himself.

w1ntermute 14y ago
> This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty much all eligible males have guns in their homes) and don't have anything remotely like the gun murder rate of the US. As I noted in my comment and you apparently failed to understand, mass murders (primarily committed by mentally unbalanced white males) are statistically insignificant compared to the murders committed by and on young poor black urban males on a daily basis. The countries you're comparing the US to here, like Israel and Switzerland, do not have that self-destructive and violent subculture. That is why the US has more firearm homicides per capita than both countries with high rates of gun ownership (like Israel and Switzerland) and those with strict gun controls (like Japan and England). Neither stricter gun control laws nor looser gun control laws will do much to move the needle on the US statistics because the bulk of murders are committed by and on individuals in a community that systematically ignores the law in the first place. Solving that problem will require a comprehensive social policy that will dismantle large aspects of contemporary African American culture. Unfortunately, it seems that any such suggestions would be political suicide, and therefore are avoided by all politicians. Eliminating mass murders (which, while currently statistically insignificant, should still be targeted), OTOH, would best be accomplished by providing comprehensive and free asylum-based care to the basket cases that commit such atrocities. Parents should not be allowed to overrule the judgment of medical professionals in such situations. Of course, none of this changes the fact that eliminating the sales of guns without background checks (such as at gun shows) needs to end right now, as it is a no-brainer.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  >Neither stricter gun control laws nor looser gun control laws will do much to move the needle on the US statistics because the bulk of murders are committed by and on individuals in a community that systematically ignores the law in the first place. Exactly, so why were you arguing that gun control is the solution? >Of course, none of this changes the fact that eliminating the sales of guns without background checks (such as at gun shows) needs to end right now, as it is a no-brainer. Where in the US can you buy a gun without a background check? I've been away for a while but I was under the impression that this was the norm if you bought from a store (obviously not enforced in private sales, but then the seller better hope the buyer doesn't kill anyone).
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > Exactly, so why were you arguing that gun control is the solution? Because preventing ex-felons and mentally deranged people from buying guns (well, anyone who hasn't had a background check done) is an effective form of gun control. > Where in the US can you buy a gun without a background check? 40% of gun sales occur at gun shows, where no background checks are performed.
    - tsotha 14y ago
      As a matter of federal law background checks are not required in sales between private parties. I'm not sure how you would implement a background check system that allows for private party sales while at the same time prevents people from fishing the database for dirt on their neighbors. Of course there are some states, like California, that don't allow sales between private parties.
    - Gormo 14y ago
      > > Exactly, so why were you arguing that gun control is the solution? > Because preventing ex-felons and mentally deranged people from buying guns (well, anyone who hasn't had a background check done) is an effective form of gun control. "Concrete isn't edible." "I know, but limestome-based concrete is the most nutritious kind."
tsotha 14y ago
>This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty much all eligible males have guns in their homes) and don't have anything remotely like the gun murder rate of the US. You're confusing standing armies and militias/reserves. A standing army is a group of people who are in the army as an occupation. You are right that the prevalence of gun ownership isn't the whole story. Certainly part of it is cultural. But for now, in this time and in the current state of the US, these incidents really are the price we pay for freedom.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  > A standing army is a group of people who are in the army as an occupation. It's not the occupation. They're normal citizens that periodically do military training and are expected to be ready at all times should an attack happen. That means having weapons and ammo at home.

w1ntermute 14y ago

> This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty much all eligible males have guns in their homes) and don't have anything remotely like the gun murder rate of the US. As I noted in my comment and you apparently failed to understand, mass murders (primarily committed by mentally unbalanced white males) are statistically insignificant compared to the murders committed by and on young poor black urban males on a daily basis. The countries you're comparing the US to here, like Israel and Switzerland, do not have that self-destructive and violent subculture. That is why the US has more firearm homicides per capita than both countries with high rates of gun ownership (like Israel and Switzerland) and those with strict gun controls (like Japan and England). Neither stricter gun control laws nor looser gun control laws will do much to move the needle on the US statistics because the bulk of murders are committed by and on individuals in a community that systematically ignores the law in the first place. Solving that problem will require a comprehensive social policy that will dismantle large aspects of contemporary African American culture. Unfortunately, it seems that any such suggestions would be political suicide, and therefore are avoided by all politicians. Eliminating mass murders (which, while currently statistically insignificant, should still be targeted), OTOH, would best be accomplished by providing comprehensive and free asylum-based care to the basket cases that commit such atrocities. Parents should not be allowed to overrule the judgment of medical professionals in such situations. Of course, none of this changes the fact that eliminating the sales of guns without background checks (such as at gun shows) needs to end right now, as it is a no-brainer.

flyinRyan 14y ago
>Neither stricter gun control laws nor looser gun control laws will do much to move the needle on the US statistics because the bulk of murders are committed by and on individuals in a community that systematically ignores the law in the first place. Exactly, so why were you arguing that gun control is the solution? >Of course, none of this changes the fact that eliminating the sales of guns without background checks (such as at gun shows) needs to end right now, as it is a no-brainer. Where in the US can you buy a gun without a background check? I've been away for a while but I was under the impression that this was the norm if you bought from a store (obviously not enforced in private sales, but then the seller better hope the buyer doesn't kill anyone).
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > Exactly, so why were you arguing that gun control is the solution? Because preventing ex-felons and mentally deranged people from buying guns (well, anyone who hasn't had a background check done) is an effective form of gun control. > Where in the US can you buy a gun without a background check? 40% of gun sales occur at gun shows, where no background checks are performed.
  - tsotha 14y ago
    As a matter of federal law background checks are not required in sales between private parties. I'm not sure how you would implement a background check system that allows for private party sales while at the same time prevents people from fishing the database for dirt on their neighbors. Of course there are some states, like California, that don't allow sales between private parties.
  - Gormo 14y ago
    > > Exactly, so why were you arguing that gun control is the solution? > Because preventing ex-felons and mentally deranged people from buying guns (well, anyone who hasn't had a background check done) is an effective form of gun control. "Concrete isn't edible." "I know, but limestome-based concrete is the most nutritious kind."

tsotha 14y ago

>This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty much all eligible males have guns in their homes) and don't have anything remotely like the gun murder rate of the US. You're confusing standing armies and militias/reserves. A standing army is a group of people who are in the army as an occupation. You are right that the prevalence of gun ownership isn't the whole story. Certainly part of it is cultural. But for now, in this time and in the current state of the US, these incidents really are the price we pay for freedom.

flyinRyan 14y ago
> A standing army is a group of people who are in the army as an occupation. It's not the occupation. They're normal citizens that periodically do military training and are expected to be ready at all times should an attack happen. That means having weapons and ammo at home.