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Their thesis may well be right but this example is completely wrong: > Stockfish has a clear goal, and it consistently and relentlessly pursues this goal. Noth
by jibal 2mo ago
Their thesis may well be right but this example is completely wrong:
> Stockfish has a clear goal, and it consistently and relentlessly pursues this goal. Nothing the other player does can cause Stockfish to drop this goal; no interaction will cause Stockfish to “go easy” on the other player in the name of fairness, mercy, or any other goal. (All of this is fairly obvious in the case of a chess AI, but it’s worth noting explicitly because there’s a greater temptation to anthropomorphize AI systems and assume they have human-like goals when the AI is capable of more general human behaviors, is tasked with imitating humans, etc.)
In fact this IS anthropomorphization: "has a clear goal, and it consistently and relentlessly pursues this goal" -- nope, Stockfish has no goals, is not "relentless", and does not pursue anything.
Stockfish is a chess engine, which is an evaluator; given a position (a chess state) it produces a numerical evaluation of each move that can be made in the position, ranked from highest to lowest. That's all -- it is otherwise passive; it has no goals of any sort. It is simply programmed to evaluate moves and give them numeric scores (by recursively evaluating a position tree using alpha-beta pruning and other standard chess engine techniques, including machine learning and neural networks).
Around that one can write a simple executive that maintains the state of the chess board and makes the move with the highest Stockfish evaluation -- people often confuse this wrapper with the Stockfish engine but they are independent. Such a simple loop is hardly a pursuer of a goal--it achieves the goal of playing near-optimal chess because the evaluator is very effective at ranking moves by how good they are, but there's no goal-seeking behavior or mechanism beyond that.
As for going easy -- chess.com has a raft of wrappers (that they call "bots") that call Stockfish but do not always play the move with the best evaluation ... these "bots" give a player a selection of strength -- weak players can select the weaker ones and strong players can select the stronger ones. By not playing the best move, these wrappers very much "go easy" on the players. These "bots" achieve the goal of playing bad/mediocre/good chess via algorithms that select moves that aren't the best, but there's no goal-seeking behavior or mechanism beyond that. But notice that an "artificial intelligence", if one wants to call these that (and it is a choice, not a law of nature), can in fact "go easy" on people.
And who initiates a game? The player -- they have a goal. And the player can resign or kill the program or close the app ... there's really nothing "relentless" here ... no more than a program that prints "99 bottles of beer on the wall".
All that said, there ARE "relentless" systems with goal-driven behavior -- it's just the example that is quite poor (and sloppy and ignorant and undercuts the thesis).
P.S. I neglected to read the other paragraphs about Stockfish, which are equally bad, e.g. "Interfere with Stockfish’s plans or put an obstacle in its way, and Stockfish will immediately change its plans to skillfully account for the obstacle." -- sorry, no, this is nonsense, more anthropomorphism -- Stockfish has no plans, does no changing, has no accounting for anything, no concept of obstacles ... that's not how it works. It simply evaluates the moves available in a position by how good they are (how likely they are to win). When the opponent makes a move, it starts all over again -- there's no continuity, no dynamism. (It does cache positions and their evaluations but that's just an optimization to save time.) You can give Stockfish a position from the middle of a game played by someone else and it will still sort the moves by how good they are, regardless of what plans the other player had, which of course Stockfish has no access to.
- mitthrowaway2 2mo agoWords! What are they for? Communication. The word "want" is clearly used here not as anthropomorphism, but as an accurate descriptive term of the output of a black-box system, whether the internals are human or otherwise. They've elaborated on how the usage is intended elsewhere. > Once AIs get sufficiently smart, they'll start acting like they have preferences—like they want things. We’re not saying that AIs will be filled with humanlike passions. We’re saying they’ll behave like they want things; they’ll tenaciously steer the world toward their destinations, defeating any obstacles in their way. > If you play chess against Stockfish—the best chess AI at time of writing —it won’t squander its queen. Does Stockfish “want” to defend its queen? Does it “want” to win the chess game? > That’s between you and your dictionary. As for how we use the word in this book, when an AI like Stockfish defends its pieces, lays traps, takes advantage of openings in your defenses, and winds up winning, we’ll describe it as “wanting” to win. In saying this, we’re not commenting one way or the other on whether a machine has feelings. Rather, we need some word to describe the outward winning behavior, and “want” seems closest. (From the book "if Anyone Builds It, Everyone Dies" by the same authors, so I assume it represents their position)
- jibal 2mo agoYes, words matter. Here are some of mine: > Their thesis may well be right but this example is completely wrong And then I explain in detail how it is wrong. The words you quote (notably, the word "want") are not in the statement from TFA that I addressed, and I'm not about to address this goalpost moving here. I do understand (especially from Daniel Dennett's Intentional Stance) how AI agents can be viewed as intentional systems, but the errors in the text I quoted are of a different sort. And again, > All that said, there ARE "relentless" systems with goal-driven behavior But a program that does no more than always play the move with the highest Stockfish eval isn't one, any more than a program playing "pick the higher number" that always selects your last move + 1. "It's diabolical! It's relentless! It wants to win and it doesn't care about me!" If they want to drive home their point then they need more compelling examples.