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Yes, I don't understand why no one will come out and say it - such mass murders are simply the price of the freedom to have guns. If everyone is armed, things a

Yes, I don't understand why no one will come out and say it - such mass murders are simply the price of the freedom to have guns. If everyone is armed, things aren't going to be better, they're going to be worse, as innocent bystanders will get hurt in shootouts between armed civilians and the evildoer they're trying to take out. One interesting thing that I read recently is that the extremely high rate of firearm murder in America is largely inflicted by and on impoverished black males living in urban areas. If you eliminate those cases/areas from the picture, things are not all that different in America from Europe. You have a higher chance of getting stabbed by a chav in London than you do of getting shot in suburban America. Of course, there are occasional mass murder incidents (which make the news). But given that most mass murderers are white and have mental problems, mental healthcare reform would take care of those cases that do occur outside of urban areas. As for the high rate of firearm homicide in urban/black areas, that has more to do with the endemic problems in contemporary African American culture than anything else, and will require a much more comprehensive social policy to correct.

tsotha 14y ago
>One interesting thing that I read recently is that the extremely high rate of firearm murder in America is largely inflicted by and on impoverished black males living in urban areas. If you eliminate those cases/areas from the picture, things are not all that different in America from Europe. You aren't supposed to talk about that.
- kls 14y ago
  While I laughed at the dark irony of your response to the subject after a few moments of reflection it's actually pretty depressing because when you really ponder it, political correctness and agendas are the reason that things like a bunch of little kids in a school being senselessly murdered will never get addressed properly and any laws enacted will only be laws of agendas. People won't let go of their own crap for 2 seconds to actually do something good for someone else.
rooshdi 14y ago
Culture is a not an excuse for allowing humans to gun down each other. Improved firearm regulation can be a part of a comprehensive social policy.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  I don't disagree with that. However, I don't think that anything will change with stricter gun laws - the people committing all those firearm homicides are the same career criminals who make a living by selling illegal drugs that are smuggled into the country. Do you really think that making guns illegal will change anything for them? In fact, guns are already illegal in many of the urban areas where they live, and that has had no effect at all. There's no need to punish law-abiding Americans who responsibly own and use firearms under existing laws while maintaining a firearm homicide rate that is similar to that in Europe.
  - rooshdi 14y ago
    Those who are law-abiding and have no history of mental illness shouldn't be affected. Data shows about 40% of firearm sales require no background check. [1] Between 1994 and 2008 data also showed that background checks obstructed firearm sales to 1.8 million prohibited people. [2] There is room to improve. [1] Philip J. Cook & Jens Ludwig, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice Research in Brief 6-7 (May 1997). [2] Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, 2008 – Statistical Tables.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      I don't object to eliminating the sales of guns without background checks. I also believe that children such as the one in this story[0] should be institutionalized (at the state's expense, if need be), so they can be cared for by professionals and not allowed to hurt other people. I do object to blanket bans of semi-automatic assault weapons, however, or the restriction of concealed carry permits. 0: http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unth...
richcollins 14y ago
and banning guns won't fix the problem: http://progun.ph/sites/default/files/jamaica-murder-rate-1970-2000.jpg http://progun.ph/sites/default/files/jamaica-murder-rate-197...
rmc 14y ago
If you eliminate those cases/areas from the picture, things are not all that different in America from Europe That's a dishonest and misleading comparison. You're taking 2 regions (USA & Western Europe) and then removing unhelpful numbers from the USA side and comparing it with W. Europe.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  Wrong, it's not dishonest or misleading at all. What is dishonest is ignoring the fact that Europe lacks a self-destructive and violent subculture that is disproportionately responsible for firearm homicides in the US when comparing rates of firearm homicides in the US and Europe. It would be like blaming Europe's nomad problem on their social laws while ignoring the fact that there's a huge gypsy community that simply refuses to integrate into society. By ignoring this fact, you pin the problem on the presence of guns when in fact there's a much deeper problem in society that, if solved, would bring firearm homicides down to the levels in Europe without banning any more types of guns. It also ignores the fact that banning guns would do nothing to stop those who are committing most of the firearm homicides from obtaining guns, since those people are already in the very business of smuggling in another illicit object into the country.
  - rmc 14y ago
    ignoring the fact that Europe lacks a self-destructive and violent subculture If you think Europe lacks violence, I suggest you read a 20th century history book. For example, there have been organised, government promoted genocides in Europe after the Linux kernel was first released.
    - w1ntermute 14y ago
      > If you think Europe lacks violence, I suggest you read a 20th century history book. You speak in the present tense ("lackS"), yet you refer to the 20th century, which ended more than a decade ago. I think you are more than a little confused. > For example, there have been organised, government promoted genocides in Europe after the Linux kernel was first released. Please name one country in Western or Northern Europe that has had a "government promoted genocide" since the beginning of the 21st century.
flyinRyan 14y ago
>such mass murders are simply the price of the freedom to have guns. This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty much all eligible males have guns in their homes) and don't have anything remotely like the gun murder rate of the US. Micheal Moore made "Bowling for Columbine" to prove that the reason for the violence was guns themselves. By the end of the his movie, he didn't seem to believe it anymore himself.
- w1ntermute 14y ago
  > This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty much all eligible males have guns in their homes) and don't have anything remotely like the gun murder rate of the US. As I noted in my comment and you apparently failed to understand, mass murders (primarily committed by mentally unbalanced white males) are statistically insignificant compared to the murders committed by and on young poor black urban males on a daily basis. The countries you're comparing the US to here, like Israel and Switzerland, do not have that self-destructive and violent subculture. That is why the US has more firearm homicides per capita than both countries with high rates of gun ownership (like Israel and Switzerland) and those with strict gun controls (like Japan and England). Neither stricter gun control laws nor looser gun control laws will do much to move the needle on the US statistics because the bulk of murders are committed by and on individuals in a community that systematically ignores the law in the first place. Solving that problem will require a comprehensive social policy that will dismantle large aspects of contemporary African American culture. Unfortunately, it seems that any such suggestions would be political suicide, and therefore are avoided by all politicians. Eliminating mass murders (which, while currently statistically insignificant, should still be targeted), OTOH, would best be accomplished by providing comprehensive and free asylum-based care to the basket cases that commit such atrocities. Parents should not be allowed to overrule the judgment of medical professionals in such situations. Of course, none of this changes the fact that eliminating the sales of guns without background checks (such as at gun shows) needs to end right now, as it is a no-brainer.
  - flyinRyan 14y ago
    >Neither stricter gun control laws nor looser gun control laws will do much to move the needle on the US statistics because the bulk of murders are committed by and on individuals in a community that systematically ignores the law in the first place. Exactly, so why were you arguing that gun control is the solution? >Of course, none of this changes the fact that eliminating the sales of guns without background checks (such as at gun shows) needs to end right now, as it is a no-brainer. Where in the US can you buy a gun without a background check? I've been away for a while but I was under the impression that this was the norm if you bought from a store (obviously not enforced in private sales, but then the seller better hope the buyer doesn't kill anyone).

tsotha 14y ago

>One interesting thing that I read recently is that the extremely high rate of firearm murder in America is largely inflicted by and on impoverished black males living in urban areas. If you eliminate those cases/areas from the picture, things are not all that different in America from Europe. You aren't supposed to talk about that.

kls 14y ago
While I laughed at the dark irony of your response to the subject after a few moments of reflection it's actually pretty depressing because when you really ponder it, political correctness and agendas are the reason that things like a bunch of little kids in a school being senselessly murdered will never get addressed properly and any laws enacted will only be laws of agendas. People won't let go of their own crap for 2 seconds to actually do something good for someone else.

rooshdi 14y ago

Culture is a not an excuse for allowing humans to gun down each other. Improved firearm regulation can be a part of a comprehensive social policy.

w1ntermute 14y ago
I don't disagree with that. However, I don't think that anything will change with stricter gun laws - the people committing all those firearm homicides are the same career criminals who make a living by selling illegal drugs that are smuggled into the country. Do you really think that making guns illegal will change anything for them? In fact, guns are already illegal in many of the urban areas where they live, and that has had no effect at all. There's no need to punish law-abiding Americans who responsibly own and use firearms under existing laws while maintaining a firearm homicide rate that is similar to that in Europe.
- rooshdi 14y ago
  Those who are law-abiding and have no history of mental illness shouldn't be affected. Data shows about 40% of firearm sales require no background check. [1] Between 1994 and 2008 data also showed that background checks obstructed firearm sales to 1.8 million prohibited people. [2] There is room to improve. [1] Philip J. Cook & Jens Ludwig, Guns in America: National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, U.S. Department of Justice, National Institute of Justice Research in Brief 6-7 (May 1997). [2] Bureau of Justice Statistics, U.S. Department of Justice, Background Checks for Firearm Transfers, 2008 – Statistical Tables.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    I don't object to eliminating the sales of guns without background checks. I also believe that children such as the one in this story[0] should be institutionalized (at the state's expense, if need be), so they can be cared for by professionals and not allowed to hurt other people. I do object to blanket bans of semi-automatic assault weapons, however, or the restriction of concealed carry permits. 0: http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unthinkable.html http://anarchistsoccermom.blogspot.com/2012/12/thinking-unth...

richcollins 14y ago

and banning guns won't fix the problem: http://progun.ph/sites/default/files/jamaica-murder-rate-1970-2000.jpg http://progun.ph/sites/default/files/jamaica-murder-rate-197...

rmc 14y ago

If you eliminate those cases/areas from the picture, things are not all that different in America from Europe That's a dishonest and misleading comparison. You're taking 2 regions (USA & Western Europe) and then removing unhelpful numbers from the USA side and comparing it with W. Europe.

w1ntermute 14y ago
Wrong, it's not dishonest or misleading at all. What is dishonest is ignoring the fact that Europe lacks a self-destructive and violent subculture that is disproportionately responsible for firearm homicides in the US when comparing rates of firearm homicides in the US and Europe. It would be like blaming Europe's nomad problem on their social laws while ignoring the fact that there's a huge gypsy community that simply refuses to integrate into society. By ignoring this fact, you pin the problem on the presence of guns when in fact there's a much deeper problem in society that, if solved, would bring firearm homicides down to the levels in Europe without banning any more types of guns. It also ignores the fact that banning guns would do nothing to stop those who are committing most of the firearm homicides from obtaining guns, since those people are already in the very business of smuggling in another illicit object into the country.
- rmc 14y ago
  ignoring the fact that Europe lacks a self-destructive and violent subculture If you think Europe lacks violence, I suggest you read a 20th century history book. For example, there have been organised, government promoted genocides in Europe after the Linux kernel was first released.
  - w1ntermute 14y ago
    > If you think Europe lacks violence, I suggest you read a 20th century history book. You speak in the present tense ("lackS"), yet you refer to the 20th century, which ended more than a decade ago. I think you are more than a little confused. > For example, there have been organised, government promoted genocides in Europe after the Linux kernel was first released. Please name one country in Western or Northern Europe that has had a "government promoted genocide" since the beginning of the 21st century.

flyinRyan 14y ago

>such mass murders are simply the price of the freedom to have guns. This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty much all eligible males have guns in their homes) and don't have anything remotely like the gun murder rate of the US. Micheal Moore made "Bowling for Columbine" to prove that the reason for the violence was guns themselves. By the end of the his movie, he didn't seem to believe it anymore himself.

w1ntermute 14y ago
> This is absolutely not true. There are plenty of places with standing armies (i.e. pretty much all eligible males have guns in their homes) and don't have anything remotely like the gun murder rate of the US. As I noted in my comment and you apparently failed to understand, mass murders (primarily committed by mentally unbalanced white males) are statistically insignificant compared to the murders committed by and on young poor black urban males on a daily basis. The countries you're comparing the US to here, like Israel and Switzerland, do not have that self-destructive and violent subculture. That is why the US has more firearm homicides per capita than both countries with high rates of gun ownership (like Israel and Switzerland) and those with strict gun controls (like Japan and England). Neither stricter gun control laws nor looser gun control laws will do much to move the needle on the US statistics because the bulk of murders are committed by and on individuals in a community that systematically ignores the law in the first place. Solving that problem will require a comprehensive social policy that will dismantle large aspects of contemporary African American culture. Unfortunately, it seems that any such suggestions would be political suicide, and therefore are avoided by all politicians. Eliminating mass murders (which, while currently statistically insignificant, should still be targeted), OTOH, would best be accomplished by providing comprehensive and free asylum-based care to the basket cases that commit such atrocities. Parents should not be allowed to overrule the judgment of medical professionals in such situations. Of course, none of this changes the fact that eliminating the sales of guns without background checks (such as at gun shows) needs to end right now, as it is a no-brainer.
- flyinRyan 14y ago
  >Neither stricter gun control laws nor looser gun control laws will do much to move the needle on the US statistics because the bulk of murders are committed by and on individuals in a community that systematically ignores the law in the first place. Exactly, so why were you arguing that gun control is the solution? >Of course, none of this changes the fact that eliminating the sales of guns without background checks (such as at gun shows) needs to end right now, as it is a no-brainer. Where in the US can you buy a gun without a background check? I've been away for a while but I was under the impression that this was the norm if you bought from a store (obviously not enforced in private sales, but then the seller better hope the buyer doesn't kill anyone).