3 ms·

« the countries not directly aligned to the "two blocks" are akin to the social "third state" as a worldwide class » — That's the economic (rather than politica

by Lumich 2mo ago

« the countries not directly aligned to the "two blocks" are akin to the social "third state" as a worldwide class » — That's the economic (rather than political) definition right there in 1952. Les pays sous-développés … et aussi exploités … le Tiers État.

iririririr 2mo ago
it's nice that you trying to get to the bottom of your understanding on this. But let me join mdp2021 and flohofwoe. The mistake is that the quote you pulled was already showing the historical revisionism that you inherited, but maybe not as explicitly. it say "the under developed countries, to say it using the style of the UN". So it is already pointed out as a forced and politically loaded term. See how those things start?
mdp2021 2mo ago
> rather than political It is certainly political: "the countries non aligned in the "cold war", currently hindered, will demand a political weight". Why have you quoted me omitting «that will demand a better position»? The whole idea from Sauvy cannot prescind from the parallel from the "Tiers Etat": third as in a different thing politically, third like that large class of poor that demand to emerge. Technically, defined as "the non aligned, the other thing", practically, "something with an historic role important in the conflict and about to explode". In context of these branches: the academician who introduced the concept did not imply any "superiority" of other parts or other lowly characterization. Obviously disadvantages are noted as they are objective - just like we do when we deal with the world with duly detached analysis. None of them can be translated to vile gut understanding. If the academician introduces a concept of "someidea" and beasts misuse it, if you want to discuss the world remain on the "someidea", if you instead want to be an ethologist focus on the misuse. If some proponent notices a relevance of some phenomenon to the "someidea", those who noted a "Ah, like the beasts intended" commit a grave base failure in the mandate from the guidelines here to responding to the most plausible interpretation and assuming good faith.
- Lumich 2mo ago
  « Why … omitting » – There was no ill intent. I saw you provided a third explanation for the term, but didn't want to analyze any deeper, so I focused on the part where Sauvy fit the notion I grew up with, the only one I was familiar with (and ignored the "superstition" part of your reply). I respectfully read the Sauvy link you provided, but frankly, despite reading/listening to lots of French, I've never come across him anywhere, and I was unaware that he coined that term in French (when it may already have been coined differently in English before). Now I see that the German Wiki article has Sauvy right at the top. (Is that where you got it from?) By the way, Sauvy "repudiated" his definition in 1989 (French Wiki): Auteur de l'expression [« tiers monde »], [Sauvy] la désavoue à la fin de sa vie : « Que l'on permette au créateur de l'expression tiers-monde, il y a déjà près de quarante ans, de la répudier, tant elle fait oublier la diversité croissante des cas. Englober dans le même terme les pays d'Afrique noire et « les quatre dragons » ne peut mener bien loin. » J'espère ne plus me faire sévèrement réprimander ici pour avoir commis des « grave base failure in the mandate from the guidelines here ». :)
  - mdp2021 2mo ago
    > a third explanation for the term There is only one, only complex, that can be rephrased at will - and which was the intention of the coiner of the expression. > I was unaware that he coined that term in French (when it may already have been coined differently in English before) [...] Is that where you got it from? I know it from Books, the good old traditional way. And not necessarily books in French: it is in the works of Paul Johnson, for example. It was not "independently coined by many" - all authors I have state that Sauvy has coined the term. > By the way, Sauvy "repudiated" his definition in 1989 Surely at some point he may have felt to retract, given that an expression coined to make a point and a good intellectual proposal - "what will be the future and the world role of those that we can now recognize as the non-aligned" - from analytical effort had become a synthetic vulgar twisted label. But the descent into vulgarity was not Sauvy's intention, and certainly there is no intent of attributing "superiority/inferiority" to the parts (as you will have seen from having read the piece on the Observateur). So again: when somebody mentions Schrödinger's cat or Hegel's cows, you cannot assume that the context be violence or discrimination against animals "as mass interpretation became at some point". You cannot attribute to the speaker unproven intentions especially if dubious, especially if frequentistic. In general; as written, here it is explicitly forbidden. For the rest, incidentally, I do agree with a tirade against the dire state of civilization in the decadent "western world", especially about the denunciation of «eunuch-like consumerist subservience» (50 years ago a conscious warning and today the token of the dead), but it was uncalled for from the post of flohofwoe. > [French language] I hope you are not falling into other assumptions.

by Lumich 2mo ago

iririririr 2mo ago

it's nice that you trying to get to the bottom of your understanding on this. But let me join mdp2021 and flohofwoe. The mistake is that the quote you pulled was already showing the historical revisionism that you inherited, but maybe not as explicitly. it say "the under developed countries, to say it using the style of the UN". So it is already pointed out as a forced and politically loaded term. See how those things start?

mdp2021 2mo ago

> rather than political It is certainly political: "the countries non aligned in the "cold war", currently hindered, will demand a political weight". Why have you quoted me omitting «that will demand a better position»? The whole idea from Sauvy cannot prescind from the parallel from the "Tiers Etat": third as in a different thing politically, third like that large class of poor that demand to emerge. Technically, defined as "the non aligned, the other thing", practically, "something with an historic role important in the conflict and about to explode". In context of these branches: the academician who introduced the concept did not imply any "superiority" of other parts or other lowly characterization. Obviously disadvantages are noted as they are objective - just like we do when we deal with the world with duly detached analysis. None of them can be translated to vile gut understanding. If the academician introduces a concept of "someidea" and beasts misuse it, if you want to discuss the world remain on the "someidea", if you instead want to be an ethologist focus on the misuse. If some proponent notices a relevance of some phenomenon to the "someidea", those who noted a "Ah, like the beasts intended" commit a grave base failure in the mandate from the guidelines here to responding to the most plausible interpretation and assuming good faith.

Lumich 2mo ago
« Why … omitting » – There was no ill intent. I saw you provided a third explanation for the term, but didn't want to analyze any deeper, so I focused on the part where Sauvy fit the notion I grew up with, the only one I was familiar with (and ignored the "superstition" part of your reply). I respectfully read the Sauvy link you provided, but frankly, despite reading/listening to lots of French, I've never come across him anywhere, and I was unaware that he coined that term in French (when it may already have been coined differently in English before). Now I see that the German Wiki article has Sauvy right at the top. (Is that where you got it from?) By the way, Sauvy "repudiated" his definition in 1989 (French Wiki): Auteur de l'expression [« tiers monde »], [Sauvy] la désavoue à la fin de sa vie : « Que l'on permette au créateur de l'expression tiers-monde, il y a déjà près de quarante ans, de la répudier, tant elle fait oublier la diversité croissante des cas. Englober dans le même terme les pays d'Afrique noire et « les quatre dragons » ne peut mener bien loin. » J'espère ne plus me faire sévèrement réprimander ici pour avoir commis des « grave base failure in the mandate from the guidelines here ». :)
- mdp2021 2mo ago
  > a third explanation for the term There is only one, only complex, that can be rephrased at will - and which was the intention of the coiner of the expression. > I was unaware that he coined that term in French (when it may already have been coined differently in English before) [...] Is that where you got it from? I know it from Books, the good old traditional way. And not necessarily books in French: it is in the works of Paul Johnson, for example. It was not "independently coined by many" - all authors I have state that Sauvy has coined the term. > By the way, Sauvy "repudiated" his definition in 1989 Surely at some point he may have felt to retract, given that an expression coined to make a point and a good intellectual proposal - "what will be the future and the world role of those that we can now recognize as the non-aligned" - from analytical effort had become a synthetic vulgar twisted label. But the descent into vulgarity was not Sauvy's intention, and certainly there is no intent of attributing "superiority/inferiority" to the parts (as you will have seen from having read the piece on the Observateur). So again: when somebody mentions Schrödinger's cat or Hegel's cows, you cannot assume that the context be violence or discrimination against animals "as mass interpretation became at some point". You cannot attribute to the speaker unproven intentions especially if dubious, especially if frequentistic. In general; as written, here it is explicitly forbidden. For the rest, incidentally, I do agree with a tirade against the dire state of civilization in the decadent "western world", especially about the denunciation of «eunuch-like consumerist subservience» (50 years ago a conscious warning and today the token of the dead), but it was uncalled for from the post of flohofwoe. > [French language] I hope you are not falling into other assumptions.