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There's literally millions of people driving newfangled EVs where the car manufacturer has full remote access to their vehicle and can upload software however a

by b112 2mo ago

There's literally millions of people driving newfangled EVs where the car manufacturer has full remote access to their vehicle and can upload software however and whenever they like. This part has been beyond baffling to me. The last thing I want, is to hit the brakes in my car, and suddenly they're less/more sensitive, due to an update the night before, and it really does matter especially on snow/ice. And such updates happen. I also don't want a perfectly good, 100% working car to suddenly degrade in experience because "Wups! Sorry! Last update broke <whatever>, we'll update within the month to fix!". It's just pure, unbridled dumb. I recently bought a car, and the dealer tried to sell me an extended warranty. What? It's under a full warranty right now, and yes, my region has very strong warranty and anti-lemon laws. But my point is, they kept saying "there's a lot of complex and expensive electronics in this car, you're going to need an extended warranty". Um, what? Hello? You just explained that the car breaks down a lot because it's complex? So complex that there are more frequent, highly expensive issues? How is that a plus? If a car is "too complex" to roll out the assembly line, without needing updates to modules on a monthly basis for years, it's the opposite of positive. I've had multiple BCM(body control module) updates, updates to every single module in the car. There shouldn't be enough code to cause issues here, it should be simple, simple, simple. But it's not. It's complex and difficult to make bug free. And that makes me oh so very comfortable as I drive down the road.

_puk 2mo ago
But you bought the car
matherial 2mo ago
> This part has been beyond baffling to me. The last thing I want Most people don't think about it when buying a car, or they have no practical way to evaluate it. So it is one of these things you probably need to fix with legislation, except the legislators love the idea too because sensor-rich, always-online cars give them more tools to police the society. I don't really know what to do with that, short of going neo-Luddite. People often see the excesses of ad tech as a failure of capitalism, but in a sense, we're seeing a tech-driven failure mode for free, democratic societies. In a world where your online presence is tied to your identity and always under the watchful eye of a large language model, and where you can't move from A to B without leaving a digital trail, it's not gonna be fun if you become a thorn in the government's side.
forestry 2mo ago
You also aren’t given a choice. If you decline, “don’t drive it”. Well, I want the car, not the connection. I could probably pull the sim I suppose.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  You really think a car dealer is going to let you just walk away over some trivial thing instead of fixing it for you?
  - Nextgrid 2mo ago
    Depends how "trivial" is the fix. Are they going to get the workshop to pull out the telematics module? Otherwise the car is still connected and very likely broadcasting telemetry anyway (and the "account" part is handled entirely on the backend). Refusing to set up or use the app is merely a placebo.
glimshe 2mo ago
Last time I bought a car the dealer couldn't enable the Internet features because I said my phone was broken. He looked at me puzzled but I said I could buy the car some other day if that was a problem... A dealer will never let a buying customer leave, so 3 years later my car still can't connect to the Internet.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  This. The same thing works with some banks.
- twoodfin 2mo ago
  AFAIK, most or all modern cars which depend on OTA updates have their own built-in cellular connectivity, the ongoing cost of which is baked into the sale price and/or optional subscription features.
  - glimshe 2mo ago
    Because they couldn't do the onboarding process with my phone, the OTA features never worked. Maybe the car still thinks it's sitting on the dealer or something. The free 1 year subscription that everybody gets also never started.
TacticalCoder 2mo ago
Here's a crazy one: I've got a 38 years old Porsche 911 Carrera since the last century (I bought it in 1999). It used to be my daily. It still runs totally fine: regularly using it to go pick the kid at school. I've got another car that's 13 years old and has got 126 000 miles / 202 000 km and that is 13 years old. In the 8 years I've had this one, my "green" doctor buddy changed four times his car. Who's consuming the most? My ecological doctor friend who changes car every two years, my 13 years old daily or my 38 years car? (most cars have long been destroyed after 38 years) Sure, the 38 old Porsche is a bit of a gas guzzler but the thing still runs strong. One Bosch Motronic electronic board for the fuel injection and that's it: no OTA updates, fully mechanical dashboard (which looks gorgeous btw). Who's really the consumerist here? Me or my doctor buddy who buys a new EV every two years? And if instead of an old Porsche I was using an old Toyota with much better mpg, then the equation is even better. I'm not against switching to an EV but I don't want any of this OTA updates and 24/7 connected bullshit: give me an EV that doesn't phone home and I may listen. Things however don't seem to be heading that way so I think I'll be driving used cars for a very long time.
- margalabargala 2mo ago
  People like your doctor friend are where the used cars you buy come from. I imagine when he gets a new one he sells the old one. Certainly he creates some demand for new cars and you make a good point about reducing consumption.
- 27183 2mo ago
  I have a 1999 Benz E300, a 1995 Toyota FZJ80, and a 1998 Dodge Ram 2500. The Benz is by far the most complex, with full CAN network, drive-by-wire, and Bosch EDC fuel injection (no mechanical governor on the injection pump). The Toyota has a 4.5L EFI engine and an electronically controlled automatic transmission. The Dodge has a mechanically governed P7100 injection pump and a manual transmission. As of right now, my bets on which cars will be running 30 more years from now are: Dodge: yes Toyota: maybe Benz: no I have a concept of a plan to combine the "maybe" and "no" vehicles into a single Frankenstein's monster which will undoubtedly be a "yes". It involves eliminating all the electronic controls. I don't see how these proprietary, point-in-time hardware/software systems can possibly be maintainable long term. In 20 years there will only be 50yo ECUs available to replace my current ones. Contrast that with any 1970s era vehicles you can buy today. So long as the rust isn't too bad, you can 100% definitely restore it mechanically.

by b112 2mo ago

_puk 2mo ago

But you bought the car

matherial 2mo ago

> This part has been beyond baffling to me. The last thing I want Most people don't think about it when buying a car, or they have no practical way to evaluate it. So it is one of these things you probably need to fix with legislation, except the legislators love the idea too because sensor-rich, always-online cars give them more tools to police the society. I don't really know what to do with that, short of going neo-Luddite. People often see the excesses of ad tech as a failure of capitalism, but in a sense, we're seeing a tech-driven failure mode for free, democratic societies. In a world where your online presence is tied to your identity and always under the watchful eye of a large language model, and where you can't move from A to B without leaving a digital trail, it's not gonna be fun if you become a thorn in the government's side.

forestry 2mo ago

You also aren’t given a choice. If you decline, “don’t drive it”. Well, I want the car, not the connection. I could probably pull the sim I suppose.

inigyou 2mo ago
You really think a car dealer is going to let you just walk away over some trivial thing instead of fixing it for you?
- Nextgrid 2mo ago
  Depends how "trivial" is the fix. Are they going to get the workshop to pull out the telematics module? Otherwise the car is still connected and very likely broadcasting telemetry anyway (and the "account" part is handled entirely on the backend). Refusing to set up or use the app is merely a placebo.

glimshe 2mo ago

Last time I bought a car the dealer couldn't enable the Internet features because I said my phone was broken. He looked at me puzzled but I said I could buy the car some other day if that was a problem... A dealer will never let a buying customer leave, so 3 years later my car still can't connect to the Internet.

inigyou 2mo ago
This. The same thing works with some banks.
twoodfin 2mo ago
AFAIK, most or all modern cars which depend on OTA updates have their own built-in cellular connectivity, the ongoing cost of which is baked into the sale price and/or optional subscription features.
- glimshe 2mo ago
  Because they couldn't do the onboarding process with my phone, the OTA features never worked. Maybe the car still thinks it's sitting on the dealer or something. The free 1 year subscription that everybody gets also never started.

TacticalCoder 2mo ago

Here's a crazy one: I've got a 38 years old Porsche 911 Carrera since the last century (I bought it in 1999). It used to be my daily. It still runs totally fine: regularly using it to go pick the kid at school. I've got another car that's 13 years old and has got 126 000 miles / 202 000 km and that is 13 years old. In the 8 years I've had this one, my "green" doctor buddy changed four times his car. Who's consuming the most? My ecological doctor friend who changes car every two years, my 13 years old daily or my 38 years car? (most cars have long been destroyed after 38 years) Sure, the 38 old Porsche is a bit of a gas guzzler but the thing still runs strong. One Bosch Motronic electronic board for the fuel injection and that's it: no OTA updates, fully mechanical dashboard (which looks gorgeous btw). Who's really the consumerist here? Me or my doctor buddy who buys a new EV every two years? And if instead of an old Porsche I was using an old Toyota with much better mpg, then the equation is even better. I'm not against switching to an EV but I don't want any of this OTA updates and 24/7 connected bullshit: give me an EV that doesn't phone home and I may listen. Things however don't seem to be heading that way so I think I'll be driving used cars for a very long time.

margalabargala 2mo ago
People like your doctor friend are where the used cars you buy come from. I imagine when he gets a new one he sells the old one. Certainly he creates some demand for new cars and you make a good point about reducing consumption.
27183 2mo ago
I have a 1999 Benz E300, a 1995 Toyota FZJ80, and a 1998 Dodge Ram 2500. The Benz is by far the most complex, with full CAN network, drive-by-wire, and Bosch EDC fuel injection (no mechanical governor on the injection pump). The Toyota has a 4.5L EFI engine and an electronically controlled automatic transmission. The Dodge has a mechanically governed P7100 injection pump and a manual transmission. As of right now, my bets on which cars will be running 30 more years from now are: Dodge: yes Toyota: maybe Benz: no I have a concept of a plan to combine the "maybe" and "no" vehicles into a single Frankenstein's monster which will undoubtedly be a "yes". It involves eliminating all the electronic controls. I don't see how these proprietary, point-in-time hardware/software systems can possibly be maintainable long term. In 20 years there will only be 50yo ECUs available to replace my current ones. Contrast that with any 1970s era vehicles you can buy today. So long as the rust isn't too bad, you can 100% definitely restore it mechanically.