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Use EVs as energy storage. Millions of EVs form an energy reservoir. 20% of solar is curtailed now and q lot more in future, instead charge EVs. Pay the EV owne

Use EVs as energy storage. Millions of EVs form an energy reservoir. 20% of solar is curtailed now and q lot more in future, instead charge EVs. Pay the EV owners because they are creating a storage layer with their capital and power prices go negative hundreds of millions of times every year. No need of home batteries.

ghostly_s 2mo ago
1. A couple orders of magnitude more people own homes than EVs; 2. EVs already are used as energy storage, but the thing about EVs is people want to use that energy to yknow, drive them.
- thelastgallon 2mo ago
  That's why paying EV owners is th right incentive. All new cars will be EVs. In 20 years, all cars are EVs.
- Lio 2mo ago
  Could it be that most people drive shorter journeys than the capacity of their cars with occasional long journeys? I know that my next will need enough range for one particular journey to a relative's house but I only do that journey once or twice a year at most. I could easily reuse the "spare" capacity the rest of the time and I'm going to lease the car so long term battery health won't be an issue. To honest I think plugin storage to go along with plug in solar will be a game changer.
jmyeet 2mo ago
The issue here is that EVs tend to be charged when the sun is down. When sun is up you tend to be at work or driving. The surplus power is coming from solar.
- thelastgallon 2mo ago
  EVs are parked 95% of the time. If it's parked, it can be charged. Work places also have electricity.
  - KaiserPro 2mo ago
    but you're assuming that work provides parking. Its not a given, plus whats in it for the drivers? plug my car in, it might be full, it might be empty, either way its racking up the charge cycles for no direct benefit for me. Batteries on a house makes a better sell for customers, and also targets the problem of both over supply and over consumption at source.
    - organsnyder 2mo ago
      Workplaces (and other locations) could offer free/reduced-cost charging, with the caveat that V2L is required. They could guarantee that the vehicle will be at a certain charge level at a designated time, and that the vehicle will never go below a threshold (in case an unanticipated trip is required).
  - cube00 2mo ago
    >Work places also have electricity. Only households can access the free electricity window. If you're not on a free plan you can get reduced rates during the solar peak window but business accounts aren't allowed to access those either.
  - Danox 2mo ago
    The boss may get a free charge, but no one else will…
- bad_haircut72 2mo ago
  surely its possible to invent a "plug in road" system, then cars could charge (at least on highways etc) even when driving. I had this thought ages back when EVs first came out, to tackle the problem of long charge times when doing cross country road trips.
  - squigz 2mo ago
    I imagine this would make road repair even more common, intensive, and disruptive than it already is?
  - toasty228 2mo ago
    On today's episode of "HNer's totally realistic and not deluded idea"...
    - bad_haircut72 2mo ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_... It already exists and works so, not that crazy
      - organsnyder 2mo ago
        It's much more difficult when the ownership of the vehicles isn't centralized.
      - toasty228 2mo ago
        [dead]
  - gerdesj 2mo ago
    You could run a line overhead on pylons and put a pick up on a pole on the cars. A smaller version of these things: https://sandtoft.org/wp/ https://sandtoft.org/wp/
  - rswail 2mo ago
    You could combine the best of dodgem cars with drone nets by encasing all the highways in electrified wiring. Some people drive as if they're in dodgem cars as it is.
- Wacari 2mo ago
  Depends. residential fleets v commercial fleets. different behaviours. Even most residential batts that get plugged in when they get home typically have SOC >40% (depending on jurisidiction).
toasty228 2mo ago
When I looked into it it didn't make sense to use an EV as a solar battery, the chemistry isn't made for high cycle counts compared to regular home/solar batteries.
- dyauspitr 2mo ago
  You looked wrong. These batteries can do 100,000 charge-discharge cycles while retaining 80% of their capacity.
  - willismichael 2mo ago
    It really depends on the battery chemistry of the specific EV, how many watts you charge at, and deep cycle vs. shallow cycle. Not all EV batteries will hold up to that many charge-discharge cycles. Even at that, 100,000 cycles is an exaggeration. From what I can tell, you can expect up to 3000 cycles from Nickel Manganese Cobalt batteries before they hit 80% of original capacity. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries can last for 10,000 cycles before dropping to 80% of original capacity. https://bslbatt.com/blogs/lfp-vs-nmc-lithium-battery-comparison/ https://bslbatt.com/blogs/lfp-vs-nmc-lithium-battery-compari...
  - toasty228 2mo ago
    Hm sorry but no, feel free to read the specs of any manufacturer, they're rated for a few thousands cycles at best, usually under 5k, closer to 2k Even lifepo4 home storage batteries designed for frequent cycling are rated for ~10k cycles. As far as I can tell there are literally no battery chemistry that can survive 100k cycles and retain 80% capacity
    - dyauspitr 2mo ago
      Yeah, I have no idea where I came up with that from. It’s completely wrong.
      - toasty228 2mo ago
        You might have read 100 000 miles? They do last a long time when used for their purpose (driving), statistically you'll get a gas engine failure earlier than a battery failure. But they're not made for at home day to day energy storage
rswail 2mo ago
In Australia people do both. We don't have V2G yet, but EVs plugged in at home overnight with L1 charging can get charged by the home battery that was charged up during the day by the PV on the roof. The solar PV and now storage rollouts in Australia have been one of the best government investments in public infrastructure in my lifetime here. The more we electrify, the less reliant we are on the crude -> foreign refineries -> imported/distributed fuel risk. Harvesting solar power is an awesome thing to do both at home and utility level. PV and wind utility installations are being built with storage co-located, there are companies building synthetic condensers to maintain the grid stability and the job of frequency support is now done mostly by batteries, not gas. We need to make electricity basically "too cheap to meter" and electrify our primary industries, mining and agriculture.
Wacari 2mo ago
Agreed. V2G is actually one of the best DER strats out there. The EVs are already purchased, the batteries and PCS are already configured for bidirectional flow in most brands. Coordination/visibility problem remains at Dx level, but actually worth the investment.
- stubish 2mo ago
  Unfortunately most of the EVs already purchased don't have the electronics to support V2G. Newer Leafs and a couple of other brands do, but I think most models in most markets cannot support V2G.
Tepix 2mo ago
Volkswagen will limit your car to 100kWh of charging your home. That's not a whole lot.
- jeeeb 2mo ago
  It’s not really clear what you mean. 100kWh is more than the entire battery capacity of the EV.
  - inemesitaffia 2mo ago
    Maybe lifetime?

ghostly_s 2mo ago

1. A couple orders of magnitude more people own homes than EVs; 2. EVs already are used as energy storage, but the thing about EVs is people want to use that energy to yknow, drive them.

thelastgallon 2mo ago
That's why paying EV owners is th right incentive. All new cars will be EVs. In 20 years, all cars are EVs.
Lio 2mo ago
Could it be that most people drive shorter journeys than the capacity of their cars with occasional long journeys? I know that my next will need enough range for one particular journey to a relative's house but I only do that journey once or twice a year at most. I could easily reuse the "spare" capacity the rest of the time and I'm going to lease the car so long term battery health won't be an issue. To honest I think plugin storage to go along with plug in solar will be a game changer.

jmyeet 2mo ago

The issue here is that EVs tend to be charged when the sun is down. When sun is up you tend to be at work or driving. The surplus power is coming from solar.

thelastgallon 2mo ago
EVs are parked 95% of the time. If it's parked, it can be charged. Work places also have electricity.
- KaiserPro 2mo ago
  but you're assuming that work provides parking. Its not a given, plus whats in it for the drivers? plug my car in, it might be full, it might be empty, either way its racking up the charge cycles for no direct benefit for me. Batteries on a house makes a better sell for customers, and also targets the problem of both over supply and over consumption at source.
  - organsnyder 2mo ago
    Workplaces (and other locations) could offer free/reduced-cost charging, with the caveat that V2L is required. They could guarantee that the vehicle will be at a certain charge level at a designated time, and that the vehicle will never go below a threshold (in case an unanticipated trip is required).
- cube00 2mo ago
  >Work places also have electricity. Only households can access the free electricity window. If you're not on a free plan you can get reduced rates during the solar peak window but business accounts aren't allowed to access those either.
- Danox 2mo ago
  The boss may get a free charge, but no one else will…
bad_haircut72 2mo ago
surely its possible to invent a "plug in road" system, then cars could charge (at least on highways etc) even when driving. I had this thought ages back when EVs first came out, to tackle the problem of long charge times when doing cross country road trips.
- squigz 2mo ago
  I imagine this would make road repair even more common, intensive, and disruptive than it already is?
- toasty228 2mo ago
  On today's episode of "HNer's totally realistic and not deluded idea"...
  - bad_haircut72 2mo ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_the_United_States https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_trolleybus_systems_in_... It already exists and works so, not that crazy
    - organsnyder 2mo ago
      It's much more difficult when the ownership of the vehicles isn't centralized.
    - toasty228 2mo ago
      [dead]
- gerdesj 2mo ago
  You could run a line overhead on pylons and put a pick up on a pole on the cars. A smaller version of these things: https://sandtoft.org/wp/ https://sandtoft.org/wp/
- rswail 2mo ago
  You could combine the best of dodgem cars with drone nets by encasing all the highways in electrified wiring. Some people drive as if they're in dodgem cars as it is.
Wacari 2mo ago
Depends. residential fleets v commercial fleets. different behaviours. Even most residential batts that get plugged in when they get home typically have SOC >40% (depending on jurisidiction).

toasty228 2mo ago

When I looked into it it didn't make sense to use an EV as a solar battery, the chemistry isn't made for high cycle counts compared to regular home/solar batteries.

dyauspitr 2mo ago
You looked wrong. These batteries can do 100,000 charge-discharge cycles while retaining 80% of their capacity.
- willismichael 2mo ago
  It really depends on the battery chemistry of the specific EV, how many watts you charge at, and deep cycle vs. shallow cycle. Not all EV batteries will hold up to that many charge-discharge cycles. Even at that, 100,000 cycles is an exaggeration. From what I can tell, you can expect up to 3000 cycles from Nickel Manganese Cobalt batteries before they hit 80% of original capacity. Lithium Iron Phosphate batteries can last for 10,000 cycles before dropping to 80% of original capacity. https://bslbatt.com/blogs/lfp-vs-nmc-lithium-battery-comparison/ https://bslbatt.com/blogs/lfp-vs-nmc-lithium-battery-compari...
- toasty228 2mo ago
  Hm sorry but no, feel free to read the specs of any manufacturer, they're rated for a few thousands cycles at best, usually under 5k, closer to 2k Even lifepo4 home storage batteries designed for frequent cycling are rated for ~10k cycles. As far as I can tell there are literally no battery chemistry that can survive 100k cycles and retain 80% capacity
  - dyauspitr 2mo ago
    Yeah, I have no idea where I came up with that from. It’s completely wrong.
    - toasty228 2mo ago
      You might have read 100 000 miles? They do last a long time when used for their purpose (driving), statistically you'll get a gas engine failure earlier than a battery failure. But they're not made for at home day to day energy storage

rswail 2mo ago

In Australia people do both. We don't have V2G yet, but EVs plugged in at home overnight with L1 charging can get charged by the home battery that was charged up during the day by the PV on the roof. The solar PV and now storage rollouts in Australia have been one of the best government investments in public infrastructure in my lifetime here. The more we electrify, the less reliant we are on the crude -> foreign refineries -> imported/distributed fuel risk. Harvesting solar power is an awesome thing to do both at home and utility level. PV and wind utility installations are being built with storage co-located, there are companies building synthetic condensers to maintain the grid stability and the job of frequency support is now done mostly by batteries, not gas. We need to make electricity basically "too cheap to meter" and electrify our primary industries, mining and agriculture.

Wacari 2mo ago

Agreed. V2G is actually one of the best DER strats out there. The EVs are already purchased, the batteries and PCS are already configured for bidirectional flow in most brands. Coordination/visibility problem remains at Dx level, but actually worth the investment.

stubish 2mo ago
Unfortunately most of the EVs already purchased don't have the electronics to support V2G. Newer Leafs and a couple of other brands do, but I think most models in most markets cannot support V2G.

Tepix 2mo ago

Volkswagen will limit your car to 100kWh of charging your home. That's not a whole lot.

jeeeb 2mo ago
It’s not really clear what you mean. 100kWh is more than the entire battery capacity of the EV.
- inemesitaffia 2mo ago
  Maybe lifetime?