3 ms·

Why does that logic not go the other way, too? Don’t care about who you sit next to? Have a discount! Suppose you operate an airline, and your costs increase

Why does that logic not go the other way, too? Don’t care about who you sit next to? Have a discount! Suppose you operate an airline, and your costs increase (e.g. fuel, labor, etc). Your options are to divide the increase equally by number of seats, or you increase price differently based on customer’s ability and willingness to pay. I do not see what is “wrong” about the latter. In fact, the latter would allow maintaining more access to air travel for those who can afford it the least. I don’t care for airport lounges, why should I pay for them? Same for bigger seats, or checked bags, or alcoholic drinks, etc. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Price_discrimination

gruez 2mo ago
>Why does that logic not go the other way, too? Because the "sticker" price is prominently advertised, so advertising a lower price than nickel-and-diming up leaves a sour taste in people's mouths rather than advertising a higher price then offering a discount, even if the final prices are the same. Of course, everyone shops for flights on comparison websites, so their only metric is that sticker price, and airlines have to engage in this sort of stuff to be competitive.
wat10000 2mo ago
What’s wrong is providing a floor that’s beneath human dignity. Imagine if they charged extra for seat belts, or getting help evacuating after a crash. Some people would be willing to take the extra risk in exchange for paying less. You let more people access air travel. People who value safety can pay extra for more of it. There would be rightful outrage. Something like lounge access is firmly in the realm of reasonable price discrimination. Charge extra, certainly! But something like charging extra to sit with your travel companions is bullshit. That sort of thing should be strongly rejected.
- lotsofpulp 2mo ago
  >Imagine if they charged extra for seat belts, or getting help evacuating after a crash. Why? This isn't happening, and I can't figure out how it is productive to make up a scenario. >But something like charging extra to sit with your travel companions is bullshit. That sort of thing should be strongly rejected. Suppose a plane has seats in groups of 3s, and everyone on the plane is in a group of even number of people. Obviously, seating everyone together is impossible. As a seller, why is it "bullshit" to give the people that do not get to sit with their companion a lower price?
  - ceejayoz 2mo ago
    Ryanair threatened to make people pay for toilet usage. Airlines are looking at standing seats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat), which would absolutely impact evacuation safety (mainly a concern of bandwidth through the aisle/doors) to save some ticket costs. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/mar/05/ryanair-toilet-charge https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/mar/05/ryanair-toi... > Obviously, seating everyone together is impossible. We manage it just fine at the movie theater, at sports stadiums, etc. Sometimes you're one row behind. Sometimes the last person to book is in a weird spot. But largely, if you want to sit with your spouse, you'll be able to. At a certain point, the bean counters have to be told no.
    - lotsofpulp 2mo ago
      Movie theaters do charge to reserve seats now (at least by me), and sports stadiums have done that forever, as far as I know. >Ryanair threatened to make people pay for toilet usage. Ryanair says a lot of crap as part of their advertising strategy. It is ragebait/clickbait/etc. Eitherway, it's on the government to enforce basic standards. >At a certain point, the bean counters have to be told no. The government should ensure minimum standards (and sufficient competition in the market). Everything else, let the customers decide what they want or do not want to pay for.
      - ceejayoz 2mo ago
        > Movie theaters do charge to reserve seats now… "Other people are also enshittifying" is not the argument you think it to be. (It's not the case in my area, incidentally.) You asserted it couldn't be done. I quote: > Obviously, seating everyone together is impossible.
      - ryandrake 2mo ago
        Buyer Beware and Let The Market Decide is a terrible way to structure society.
      - wat10000 2mo ago
ceejayoz 2mo ago
> I don’t care for airport lounges, why should I pay for them? Same for bigger seats, or checked bags, or alcoholic drinks, etc. But they can, and will, always stretch this further than it should go. It's like a restaurant that charges you extra for cutlery. Some cultures eat with their hands, and probably plenty of people would take a discount to do so. But it ruins the experience in the long term, and then the industry demands a bailout and we all get to pay more taxes for a shitty experience so they can buy back shares to boost the stock. Eventually "basic economy" becomes a single iron maiden at the back of the plane used to punish the lowest-paying passenger for not knowing about its existence.
- lotsofpulp 2mo ago
  >But they can, and will, always stretch this further than it should go. That is just an opinion. For example: >It's like a restaurant that charges you extra for cutlery. Some cultures eat with their hands, and probably plenty of people would take a discount to do so. But it ruins the experience in the long term My parents and family come from a culture that almost exclusively eats with their hands. It is so important to them that they actually say they do not feel like they have eaten unless they eat with their hands. >and then the industry demands a bailout and we all get to pay more taxes for a shitty experience so they can buy back shares to boost the stock. This is a separate topic about politics, not about the "right" or "wrong" nature of a business choosing how to price discriminate. >Eventually "basic economy" becomes a single iron maiden at the back of the plane used to punish the lowest-paying passenger for not knowing about its existence. Not according to any flight I have been on. I don't see the point of feeling outrage at something that hasn't happened. In my experience, basic economy is still just as clean and safe of a seat as the others, you get on the plane, sit down, and put headphones on or read a book or go to sleep. If they let me pay a lower price for that, great!
  - ceejayoz 2mo ago
    > Not according to any flight I have been on. Are we just learning about future tense? > In my experience, basic economy is still just as clean and safe of a seat as the others... They are meaningfully less safe. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8412040/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8412040/ "Economy class syndrome refers to the occurrence of thrombotic events during long-haul flights, mainly in economy class passengers."

gruez 2mo ago

>Why does that logic not go the other way, too? Because the "sticker" price is prominently advertised, so advertising a lower price than nickel-and-diming up leaves a sour taste in people's mouths rather than advertising a higher price then offering a discount, even if the final prices are the same. Of course, everyone shops for flights on comparison websites, so their only metric is that sticker price, and airlines have to engage in this sort of stuff to be competitive.

wat10000 2mo ago

What’s wrong is providing a floor that’s beneath human dignity. Imagine if they charged extra for seat belts, or getting help evacuating after a crash. Some people would be willing to take the extra risk in exchange for paying less. You let more people access air travel. People who value safety can pay extra for more of it. There would be rightful outrage. Something like lounge access is firmly in the realm of reasonable price discrimination. Charge extra, certainly! But something like charging extra to sit with your travel companions is bullshit. That sort of thing should be strongly rejected.

lotsofpulp 2mo ago
>Imagine if they charged extra for seat belts, or getting help evacuating after a crash. Why? This isn't happening, and I can't figure out how it is productive to make up a scenario. >But something like charging extra to sit with your travel companions is bullshit. That sort of thing should be strongly rejected. Suppose a plane has seats in groups of 3s, and everyone on the plane is in a group of even number of people. Obviously, seating everyone together is impossible. As a seller, why is it "bullshit" to give the people that do not get to sit with their companion a lower price?
- ceejayoz 2mo ago
  Ryanair threatened to make people pay for toilet usage. Airlines are looking at standing seats (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertical_seat), which would absolutely impact evacuation safety (mainly a concern of bandwidth through the aisle/doors) to save some ticket costs. https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/mar/05/ryanair-toilet-charge https://www.theguardian.com/business/2009/mar/05/ryanair-toi... > Obviously, seating everyone together is impossible. We manage it just fine at the movie theater, at sports stadiums, etc. Sometimes you're one row behind. Sometimes the last person to book is in a weird spot. But largely, if you want to sit with your spouse, you'll be able to. At a certain point, the bean counters have to be told no.
  - lotsofpulp 2mo ago
    Movie theaters do charge to reserve seats now (at least by me), and sports stadiums have done that forever, as far as I know. >Ryanair threatened to make people pay for toilet usage. Ryanair says a lot of crap as part of their advertising strategy. It is ragebait/clickbait/etc. Eitherway, it's on the government to enforce basic standards. >At a certain point, the bean counters have to be told no. The government should ensure minimum standards (and sufficient competition in the market). Everything else, let the customers decide what they want or do not want to pay for.
    - ceejayoz 2mo ago
      > Movie theaters do charge to reserve seats now… "Other people are also enshittifying" is not the argument you think it to be. (It's not the case in my area, incidentally.) You asserted it couldn't be done. I quote: > Obviously, seating everyone together is impossible.
    - ryandrake 2mo ago
      Buyer Beware and Let The Market Decide is a terrible way to structure society.
    - wat10000 2mo ago

ceejayoz 2mo ago

> I don’t care for airport lounges, why should I pay for them? Same for bigger seats, or checked bags, or alcoholic drinks, etc. But they can, and will, always stretch this further than it should go. It's like a restaurant that charges you extra for cutlery. Some cultures eat with their hands, and probably plenty of people would take a discount to do so. But it ruins the experience in the long term, and then the industry demands a bailout and we all get to pay more taxes for a shitty experience so they can buy back shares to boost the stock. Eventually "basic economy" becomes a single iron maiden at the back of the plane used to punish the lowest-paying passenger for not knowing about its existence.

lotsofpulp 2mo ago
>But they can, and will, always stretch this further than it should go. That is just an opinion. For example: >It's like a restaurant that charges you extra for cutlery. Some cultures eat with their hands, and probably plenty of people would take a discount to do so. But it ruins the experience in the long term My parents and family come from a culture that almost exclusively eats with their hands. It is so important to them that they actually say they do not feel like they have eaten unless they eat with their hands. >and then the industry demands a bailout and we all get to pay more taxes for a shitty experience so they can buy back shares to boost the stock. This is a separate topic about politics, not about the "right" or "wrong" nature of a business choosing how to price discriminate. >Eventually "basic economy" becomes a single iron maiden at the back of the plane used to punish the lowest-paying passenger for not knowing about its existence. Not according to any flight I have been on. I don't see the point of feeling outrage at something that hasn't happened. In my experience, basic economy is still just as clean and safe of a seat as the others, you get on the plane, sit down, and put headphones on or read a book or go to sleep. If they let me pay a lower price for that, great!
- ceejayoz 2mo ago
  > Not according to any flight I have been on. Are we just learning about future tense? > In my experience, basic economy is still just as clean and safe of a seat as the others... They are meaningfully less safe. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8412040/ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC8412040/ "Economy class syndrome refers to the occurrence of thrombotic events during long-haul flights, mainly in economy class passengers."