4 ms·

I haven't heard of any interview method that wasn't roundly condemned on HN. > the solution is almost invariably “use a hashmap” or “use a minheap” And you wo

I haven't heard of any interview method that wasn't roundly condemned on HN. > the solution is almost invariably “use a hashmap” or “use a minheap” And you wouldn't be wasting your time on candidates who: 1. don't know what a hashmap or minheap is 2. didn't bother to study up before the interview

tombert 2mo ago
> I haven't heard of any interview method that wasn't roundly condemned on HN. Sure, but none have been more thoroughly condemned (and correctly) than the idiotic leetcode whiteboard challenges. > And you wouldn't be wasting your time on candidates who: 1. don't know what a hashmap or minheap is 2. didn't bother to study up before the interview OR, and hear me out, you actively filter out people who know how stupid these problems are and know that big-O is misleading for a lot of these problems. You're selection-biasing towards people who are going to regurgitate bad answers, and the middle manager conducting the interviews is usually too incompetent to understand what a "constant factor" is. I've been rejected for jobs specifically because I mention that using a hashmap for these things will likely be slower than a naive implementation, even when the I get the problem "right" in the way that they wanted it. Now we could argue that I'm a bad candidate in general, but (at the risk of sounding cocky) I likely do understand data structures and algorithms better than most mediocre engineers conducting the interview, but because most engineers are pretty uninspired and have never asked "why" for anything in their lives, they will "correct" me. They will assume that me providing nuance is a lack of understanding on my end. > A quick check shows that Google, Microsoft, Nvidia, Meta, Apple, Anthropic all do leetcode testing. Yep, can confirm. I've worked at a FAANG, and they did indeed leetcode testing for the interview. It turns out that big corporations are fully capable of doing stupid things in perpetuity.
- WalterBright 2mo ago
  I appreciate that, but my whole life I've heard again and again and again that "high stakes testing" does not work. I've heard all the arguments. But the bottom line is the testing is an effective filter. After all, would you get on a jetliner piloted by a handsome fellow with a firm handshake who failed to pass all the written tests, but really knows how to fly? It's not that hard to study the leetcode books. Doesn't the prize of a top shelf salary make it worthwhile? It's a good investment in your career.
  - defrost 2mo ago
    Person that can fly every time - Diana Barnato Walker flew 80 types of aircraft before finally getting a commercial flying licence.
    - WalterBright 2mo ago
      I'm sure she passed the written tests. My dad flew 23 airplane types - single engine, multi engine, 2 wings, 1 wing, bombers, fighters, jets, and piston engines. In his papers I found some of the written exams he had to pass to get certified to fly them. Just "knowing how to fly" is a good way to get yourself killed. There was one incident where his F-86 Saber jet had its engine quit. He was faced with the choice of bailing out or gliding back to base. Having passed the written test, he knew how to calculate the best gliding angle, the best velocity, the best configuration of the airplane, took into account the wind, the altitude, and the weight, and figured he could bring the bird in. Which he did, safely. All that boring stuff that requires study and it has to reside in your brain.
  - tombert 2mo ago
    > It's not that hard to study the leetcode books. Doesn't the prize of a top shelf salary make it worthwhile? It's a good investment in your career You are arguing two different points here. I am, generally speaking, reasonably good at the leetcode stuff, because I agree that it’s not that hard to get good at it. As a practical thing for society as it currently is, sure, studying up on the idiotic leetcode stuff is a relatively good investment. But that pays little bearing on whether leetcode is a good test, and whether it should be something that we are using as a metric. I am arguing that it’s a dumb test and we should stop doing it at a systemic level.
    - WalterBright 2mo ago
      > But that pays little bearing on whether leetcode is a good test, and whether it should be something that we are using as a metric. I am arguing that it’s a dumb test and we should stop doing it at a systemic level. Would you feel differently if you owned the company, and you'd be paying the salary for months for someone who talked a good game but was incompetent?

tombert 2mo ago

> I haven't heard of any interview method that wasn't roundly condemned on HN. Sure, but none have been more thoroughly condemned (and correctly) than the idiotic leetcode whiteboard challenges. > And you wouldn't be wasting your time on candidates who: 1. don't know what a hashmap or minheap is 2. didn't bother to study up before the interview OR, and hear me out, you actively filter out people who know how stupid these problems are and know that big-O is misleading for a lot of these problems. You're selection-biasing towards people who are going to regurgitate bad answers, and the middle manager conducting the interviews is usually too incompetent to understand what a "constant factor" is. I've been rejected for jobs specifically because I mention that using a hashmap for these things will likely be slower than a naive implementation, even when the I get the problem "right" in the way that they wanted it. Now we could argue that I'm a bad candidate in general, but (at the risk of sounding cocky) I likely do understand data structures and algorithms better than most mediocre engineers conducting the interview, but because most engineers are pretty uninspired and have never asked "why" for anything in their lives, they will "correct" me. They will assume that me providing nuance is a lack of understanding on my end. > A quick check shows that Google, Microsoft, Nvidia, Meta, Apple, Anthropic all do leetcode testing. Yep, can confirm. I've worked at a FAANG, and they did indeed leetcode testing for the interview. It turns out that big corporations are fully capable of doing stupid things in perpetuity.

WalterBright 2mo ago
I appreciate that, but my whole life I've heard again and again and again that "high stakes testing" does not work. I've heard all the arguments. But the bottom line is the testing is an effective filter. After all, would you get on a jetliner piloted by a handsome fellow with a firm handshake who failed to pass all the written tests, but really knows how to fly? It's not that hard to study the leetcode books. Doesn't the prize of a top shelf salary make it worthwhile? It's a good investment in your career.
- defrost 2mo ago
  Person that can fly every time - Diana Barnato Walker flew 80 types of aircraft before finally getting a commercial flying licence.
  - WalterBright 2mo ago
    I'm sure she passed the written tests. My dad flew 23 airplane types - single engine, multi engine, 2 wings, 1 wing, bombers, fighters, jets, and piston engines. In his papers I found some of the written exams he had to pass to get certified to fly them. Just "knowing how to fly" is a good way to get yourself killed. There was one incident where his F-86 Saber jet had its engine quit. He was faced with the choice of bailing out or gliding back to base. Having passed the written test, he knew how to calculate the best gliding angle, the best velocity, the best configuration of the airplane, took into account the wind, the altitude, and the weight, and figured he could bring the bird in. Which he did, safely. All that boring stuff that requires study and it has to reside in your brain.
- tombert 2mo ago
  > It's not that hard to study the leetcode books. Doesn't the prize of a top shelf salary make it worthwhile? It's a good investment in your career You are arguing two different points here. I am, generally speaking, reasonably good at the leetcode stuff, because I agree that it’s not that hard to get good at it. As a practical thing for society as it currently is, sure, studying up on the idiotic leetcode stuff is a relatively good investment. But that pays little bearing on whether leetcode is a good test, and whether it should be something that we are using as a metric. I am arguing that it’s a dumb test and we should stop doing it at a systemic level.
  - WalterBright 2mo ago
    > But that pays little bearing on whether leetcode is a good test, and whether it should be something that we are using as a metric. I am arguing that it’s a dumb test and we should stop doing it at a systemic level. Would you feel differently if you owned the company, and you'd be paying the salary for months for someone who talked a good game but was incompetent?