5 ms·

PIE was not just a commonality for language, but also for religion across these regions. And then came along the Semitic wave of religions.

drivers99 2mo ago
pretty interesting etymology connecting Dios, Jupiter, Zeus, etc. (Sky Father) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Dy%C4%93us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Dy%C4%93us
- euroderf 2mo ago
  And then there is Tuesday, for the forgotten god.
  - OutOfHere 2mo ago
    Many of the days of the week are named after ancient nature gods, many of which trace to PIE: PIE sóh₂wl̥ (“sun”) → Proto-Germanic sunnǭ (“sun”) → Old English sunne (“sun”) → Old English Sunnandæg (“Sun's day”) → Middle English Sonday / Sunday → Sunday PIE mḗh₁n̥s (“moon; month”) → Proto-Germanic mēnô (“moon”) → Old English mōna (“moon”) → Old English Mōnandæg (“Moon's day”) → Middle English Monenday / Monday → Monday PIE deywós → Sanskrit deva, “god” → Latin deus, “god” → Old Norse Týr, the god → Old English Tīw → Tīwesdæg (“Tiw's day”) → Tuesday PIE dyew- (“bright sky; daylight”) → deywós (“celestial one; god”) → Proto-Germanic Tīwaz → Old English Tīw → Tīwesdæg → Tuesday The reconstruction exists for the remaining days too, but is more uncertain when tracing it to PIE: PIE weh₂t- / related roots concerning excitement or inspiration → Proto-Germanic *Wōðanaz → Old English Wōden → Wōdnesdæg (“Woden's day”) → Wednesday PIE (s)tenh₂- (“thunder”) (reconstruction/derivation has some uncertainty) → Proto-Germanic þunraz (“thunder”; the god Thunder/Thor) → Old English Þunor → Þunresdæg (“Þunor's day”) → Thursday PIE prih₁- / preyH- (“to love; be dear”) → Proto-Germanic Frijjō (the goddess Frigg, approximately “beloved/dear one”) → Old English Frīg → Old English Frīgedæg (“Frīg's day”) → Middle English Fridai / Friday → Friday Saturday is not known to trace to PIE: Latin Saturnus → Old English Sætern(es)dæg (“Saturn's day”) → Saturday
TFNA 2mo ago
Reconstructing a PIE religion (as opposed to a few rather vague lexemes like "sky god") is regarded as less tenable today than in the past. The well-described features of Indo-Iranian religion are largely innovations and not found among speakers of IE branches that split off before. Some of Greek and Roman religion is actually the result of areal contact, not inheritance from earlier IE times. You might want to read a scholarly introduction to the field (not a pop-sci one that is likely to be unreliable by definition) from recent years.
- OutOfHere 2mo ago
  The "PIE religion" is the name scholars give to the religious pool that is partially reconstructed from the overlapping evidence (poetry+rituals+myth+gods+vocabulary) of its descendants. Each descendant subregion of PIE of course imposed its own religious beliefs and local gods. There is no surprise there. The key thread of derivative localized polytheism, often rooted in the same nature-based phenomenon, however persisted across the regions. Refer to the sibling comment by drivers99. Sky god is not a vague lexeme; it is a critical rooting evidence. You're fooling no one by attempting to cover it up. A shallow dismissal of valid evidence is an attribute of a conman.
  - TFNA 2mo ago
    I am an actual Indo-Europeanist and currently employed in the field. Please stop trying to oversell this. The sibling comment is referring to the aforementioned vague lexemes, too vague for much reconstruction of anything meriting being called a common IE religion. Earlier work by scholars like Dumézil, which are common to pop-sci shit and still hang on here and there on Wikipedia, are generally discussed within the field now as cautionary tales. No one has any problem with reconstructing some branch-level stuff like Italic or Indo-Iranian. But projecting it back to even Nuclear/Core Indo-European, let alone Proto-Indo-European, is too fraught with problems.
    - muststopmyths 2mo ago
      would you recommend a more recent book comparable to "Empires of the Word" by Nicholas Ostler on the subject of languages ? I am really enjoying the book, but it's over 20 years old at this point. I wonder how much of the information is out of date now.
bonoboTP 2mo ago
Languages, cultures and genetic populations are all separate concepts that have to be distinguished. There can be and there often is correlation, but it's not the same thing. They don't have to move together.
- OutOfHere 2mo ago
  > They don't have to move together. It is mathematically true that they don't have to move together, but there are lines of evidence that for PIE they did. For example, there are lots of divinity related words and root words found in the PIE language that then carried forward in various derived languages in distinct geographical regions of Indo-Europe. This is not nothing. There are even be stories that similarly exist in common. There is the story of slaying the serpent. There is another story of the divine twins. These stories are found everywhere that the PIE culture went. The third line of evidence is PIE poetic formulas and poetic traditions. These again show up in multiple post-PIE cultures. The local writings show the same mythic structure across cultures. These things are too difficult to explain without a common ancestor culture/religion.

drivers99 2mo ago

pretty interesting etymology connecting Dios, Jupiter, Zeus, etc. (Sky Father) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Dy%C4%93us https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/*Dy%C4%93us

euroderf 2mo ago
And then there is Tuesday, for the forgotten god.
- OutOfHere 2mo ago
  Many of the days of the week are named after ancient nature gods, many of which trace to PIE: PIE sóh₂wl̥ (“sun”) → Proto-Germanic sunnǭ (“sun”) → Old English sunne (“sun”) → Old English Sunnandæg (“Sun's day”) → Middle English Sonday / Sunday → Sunday PIE mḗh₁n̥s (“moon; month”) → Proto-Germanic mēnô (“moon”) → Old English mōna (“moon”) → Old English Mōnandæg (“Moon's day”) → Middle English Monenday / Monday → Monday PIE deywós → Sanskrit deva, “god” → Latin deus, “god” → Old Norse Týr, the god → Old English Tīw → Tīwesdæg (“Tiw's day”) → Tuesday PIE dyew- (“bright sky; daylight”) → deywós (“celestial one; god”) → Proto-Germanic Tīwaz → Old English Tīw → Tīwesdæg → Tuesday The reconstruction exists for the remaining days too, but is more uncertain when tracing it to PIE: PIE weh₂t- / related roots concerning excitement or inspiration → Proto-Germanic *Wōðanaz → Old English Wōden → Wōdnesdæg (“Woden's day”) → Wednesday PIE (s)tenh₂- (“thunder”) (reconstruction/derivation has some uncertainty) → Proto-Germanic þunraz (“thunder”; the god Thunder/Thor) → Old English Þunor → Þunresdæg (“Þunor's day”) → Thursday PIE prih₁- / preyH- (“to love; be dear”) → Proto-Germanic Frijjō (the goddess Frigg, approximately “beloved/dear one”) → Old English Frīg → Old English Frīgedæg (“Frīg's day”) → Middle English Fridai / Friday → Friday Saturday is not known to trace to PIE: Latin Saturnus → Old English Sætern(es)dæg (“Saturn's day”) → Saturday

TFNA 2mo ago

Reconstructing a PIE religion (as opposed to a few rather vague lexemes like "sky god") is regarded as less tenable today than in the past. The well-described features of Indo-Iranian religion are largely innovations and not found among speakers of IE branches that split off before. Some of Greek and Roman religion is actually the result of areal contact, not inheritance from earlier IE times. You might want to read a scholarly introduction to the field (not a pop-sci one that is likely to be unreliable by definition) from recent years.

OutOfHere 2mo ago
The "PIE religion" is the name scholars give to the religious pool that is partially reconstructed from the overlapping evidence (poetry+rituals+myth+gods+vocabulary) of its descendants. Each descendant subregion of PIE of course imposed its own religious beliefs and local gods. There is no surprise there. The key thread of derivative localized polytheism, often rooted in the same nature-based phenomenon, however persisted across the regions. Refer to the sibling comment by drivers99. Sky god is not a vague lexeme; it is a critical rooting evidence. You're fooling no one by attempting to cover it up. A shallow dismissal of valid evidence is an attribute of a conman.
- TFNA 2mo ago
  I am an actual Indo-Europeanist and currently employed in the field. Please stop trying to oversell this. The sibling comment is referring to the aforementioned vague lexemes, too vague for much reconstruction of anything meriting being called a common IE religion. Earlier work by scholars like Dumézil, which are common to pop-sci shit and still hang on here and there on Wikipedia, are generally discussed within the field now as cautionary tales. No one has any problem with reconstructing some branch-level stuff like Italic or Indo-Iranian. But projecting it back to even Nuclear/Core Indo-European, let alone Proto-Indo-European, is too fraught with problems.
  - muststopmyths 2mo ago
    would you recommend a more recent book comparable to "Empires of the Word" by Nicholas Ostler on the subject of languages ? I am really enjoying the book, but it's over 20 years old at this point. I wonder how much of the information is out of date now.

bonoboTP 2mo ago

Languages, cultures and genetic populations are all separate concepts that have to be distinguished. There can be and there often is correlation, but it's not the same thing. They don't have to move together.

OutOfHere 2mo ago
> They don't have to move together. It is mathematically true that they don't have to move together, but there are lines of evidence that for PIE they did. For example, there are lots of divinity related words and root words found in the PIE language that then carried forward in various derived languages in distinct geographical regions of Indo-Europe. This is not nothing. There are even be stories that similarly exist in common. There is the story of slaying the serpent. There is another story of the divine twins. These stories are found everywhere that the PIE culture went. The third line of evidence is PIE poetic formulas and poetic traditions. These again show up in multiple post-PIE cultures. The local writings show the same mythic structure across cultures. These things are too difficult to explain without a common ancestor culture/religion.