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Some of the collection is creepy, and I’ve largely stopped using mobile apps and loyalty programs myself. However, some of the concern seems very misplaced. “O

by generj 2mo ago

Some of the collection is creepy, and I’ve largely stopped using mobile apps and loyalty programs myself. However, some of the concern seems very misplaced. “Oh no McDonald’s runs a Customer Lifetime Value algorithm, a thing in use for decades and which has minimal privacy implications.” “GASP the Golden Arches knows I like Diet Coke and has applied a marketing segmentation to me!” Congrats, you’ve discovered they use concepts taught in Marketing 101?

Grombobulous 2mo ago
Yeah, it’s 500+ pages, where is the surprising stuff? I assume the author of the piece would have chosen to list out the most egregious/shocking data out of the document, right? I don’t think any of this is non-surprising in the “we’ve been conditioned to think this is normal” kind of way. This is really just a basic transaction history with extremely basic non-AI analytics applied. The length of the document sounds scary but it also seems like it’s essentially a transaction list. I would have thought the article might get into more details like location tracking like being able to predict where that person would be at a certain time, or maybe details inferred from data like “this person buys McFlurries when they’re on their period.” Something scarier would be figuring our friend and family relationships, where relatives and friends live, etc. I’m sure that could be done with data like this, and it’s critical that companies like McDonald’s keep that data secure and delete it when they don’t need it. We should have better laws in that regard. At some point McDonald’s doesn’t really care about all that extra creepy stuff. Anything beyond figuring out your buying preferences is not useful information to them. The biggest concern would be that they would be willing to sell that data to someone else who is interested.
juiceland 2mo ago
If the concern is misplaced, where should it be placed?
- whartung 2mo ago
  The concern is when the data breaks out of the silos. It should not shock anyone that Amazon has an entire history of everything that you've ever bought. I would likely not surprise anyone here that they have a log of every item you've clicked on, or even moused over. The beauty of modern systems is that storing all of that data is very cheap. The dark side is if the fellow queried McDonalds and found not just his McDonalds trends, but his shopping habits from, say, Target. Where McDs and Target perhaps had a data sharing agreement to correlate customers. Or seeing a copy of his credit report in there buried underneath the stack of Diet Coke and Quarter Pounder receipts. That's where the concern shows up. Not the raw data, but the cross cutting concerns as the data is potentially more centralized. Perhaps into a company that you don't even know is collecting info on you. Some corp that McDs is sharing with. You request your dossier from McDs because you know they're collecting your data. But you don't request it from Company X, because you don't know they're doing so. Then there's the issue of handing the data over to the authorities without so much as a warrant -- different problem.
- tiahura 2mo ago
  focusing on the weeds in your lawn would be more productive
mainmailman 2mo ago
That’s where I’m at. I really don’t care if an individual business collects usage data like this. I have a problem when that data is used outside of that context. Try to sell me more burgers and fries? Fine, but don’t tell my doctor, or palantir, or the government etc etc. I don’t believe that’s a huge ask as a consumer in the Information Age.
- rpdillon 2mo ago
  This is a very fair take. McDonalds is entitled to the data about their customers' transactions with the business because that's the business. If they turned around and started selling it to health insurance, I'd have a problem with that.
  - tiahura 2mo ago
    Information asymmetry is ok for me but not for thee.
williamdclt 2mo ago
the vast majority of people have not taken Marketing 101, and it'd be strange to expect them to have. I know you're not literally talking about a Marketing 101 course, but the point is the same
- generj 2mo ago
  I’m not talking about a literal Marketing 101 course, but I’m also not entirely facetious about this all being taught in a first or second Marketing class (having attended those). I agree we should not expect everyone to have taken a marketing class - but I sure expect the author of the piece to have demonstrated some curiosity about some of the terms. And we know they did, because the author decoded them into plainer language in their table. So why present these elements as an abnormal thing for McDonald’s to compute about them, rather than something an undergrad might be expected to compute as part of a project?
AlexandrB 2mo ago
What people think of these programs is often linked to the perception of the product being sold. If a cigarette company did this, people would be pissed. McDonalds is kind of an edge case - everyone knows it's not great for you, but it's not as harmful as cigarettes or drinking so you get mixed takes. The classic case here is Target inferring that someone was pregnant before her family did[1] - so yeah, this is nothing new. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targ...
- clintonb 2mo ago
  Altria already does this to some extent. See their Digital Trade Program.
- kjs3 2mo ago
  Where it gets "you really should care about this" are things like your insurance carrier using this sort of data (which is for sale to all comers) to, say, increase your premiums under the guise of "your 2 Big Mac a week habit makes you a bigger risk".
  - tiahura 2mo ago
    Insurance is about accurately pricing risk, not subsidizing covert risky behaviors. Why shouldn't they consider your diet?
    - RevEng 2mo ago
      I don't want them to. I'm not giving them that data myself and I don't consent to McDonalds giving them that data either, where that data is something I have to McDonalds. It's about information asymmetry.
    - kjs3 2mo ago
      I would like to assume that people aren't generally so ignorant of how insurance works that they think the risk of eating two big macs a week could be accurately priced in and that insurance companies would not just use the fact of eating a couple to justify an unsupported by actuarial analysis rate increase. Once again, my assumptions of people prove misguided.
yesco 2mo ago
Yeah I walked into this with my pitchfork ready but isn't this stuff pretty... reasonable? McDonalds is just a restaurant, they predict what menu items you like and how likely you will come back, is that really a problem? What is the concern here? I don't use their app but presumably for those that do, isn't this exactly the type of data that would simply influence whether the app offers a coupon or something? Or how well a franchise is doing? Maybe also what to keep on the menu or how much to stock? What exactly is the bar here I wonder? McDonalds has security cameras, it also has menu kiosks with cameras (I think?). The alternate reality evil tech-like McDonalds could have theoretically used facial recognition to categorize all footage of any given customer, then used this footage to estimate their friends, spouse, BMI, age, gender, ethnic group, attractivness, disability, etc. They could then sell it to third party data brokers for extra cash. That would certainly be the kind of dystopian surveillance to get me swinging my pitchfork around, but this? Having assumed the worst I'm now walking away realizing McDonalds might not be so bad after all.
BeetleB 2mo ago
Yeah I kept reading the article and thinking ... "This seems reasonable." "This seems fine." It also wasn't clear how much of the data they have is because he's using the app. If it is, it seems much/most of the data was in his control. Do they think McDonalds (or whichever company) is going to spend a lot of money building an app and a rewards program and not expect an ROI on it?
- Ylpertnodi 2mo ago
  They could increase the price of their product. Or, cut employee wages.
- Jeremy1026 2mo ago
  I do wonder what was included in the other 510 pages of data that wasn't talked about though.
  - BeetleB 2mo ago
    My best guess is: Nothing interesting. If there were, then he's being a really sloppy journalist for not telling us.

by generj 2mo ago

Grombobulous 2mo ago

Yeah, it’s 500+ pages, where is the surprising stuff? I assume the author of the piece would have chosen to list out the most egregious/shocking data out of the document, right? I don’t think any of this is non-surprising in the “we’ve been conditioned to think this is normal” kind of way. This is really just a basic transaction history with extremely basic non-AI analytics applied. The length of the document sounds scary but it also seems like it’s essentially a transaction list. I would have thought the article might get into more details like location tracking like being able to predict where that person would be at a certain time, or maybe details inferred from data like “this person buys McFlurries when they’re on their period.” Something scarier would be figuring our friend and family relationships, where relatives and friends live, etc. I’m sure that could be done with data like this, and it’s critical that companies like McDonald’s keep that data secure and delete it when they don’t need it. We should have better laws in that regard. At some point McDonald’s doesn’t really care about all that extra creepy stuff. Anything beyond figuring out your buying preferences is not useful information to them. The biggest concern would be that they would be willing to sell that data to someone else who is interested.

juiceland 2mo ago

If the concern is misplaced, where should it be placed?

whartung 2mo ago
The concern is when the data breaks out of the silos. It should not shock anyone that Amazon has an entire history of everything that you've ever bought. I would likely not surprise anyone here that they have a log of every item you've clicked on, or even moused over. The beauty of modern systems is that storing all of that data is very cheap. The dark side is if the fellow queried McDonalds and found not just his McDonalds trends, but his shopping habits from, say, Target. Where McDs and Target perhaps had a data sharing agreement to correlate customers. Or seeing a copy of his credit report in there buried underneath the stack of Diet Coke and Quarter Pounder receipts. That's where the concern shows up. Not the raw data, but the cross cutting concerns as the data is potentially more centralized. Perhaps into a company that you don't even know is collecting info on you. Some corp that McDs is sharing with. You request your dossier from McDs because you know they're collecting your data. But you don't request it from Company X, because you don't know they're doing so. Then there's the issue of handing the data over to the authorities without so much as a warrant -- different problem.
tiahura 2mo ago
focusing on the weeds in your lawn would be more productive

mainmailman 2mo ago

That’s where I’m at. I really don’t care if an individual business collects usage data like this. I have a problem when that data is used outside of that context. Try to sell me more burgers and fries? Fine, but don’t tell my doctor, or palantir, or the government etc etc. I don’t believe that’s a huge ask as a consumer in the Information Age.

rpdillon 2mo ago
This is a very fair take. McDonalds is entitled to the data about their customers' transactions with the business because that's the business. If they turned around and started selling it to health insurance, I'd have a problem with that.
- tiahura 2mo ago
  Information asymmetry is ok for me but not for thee.

williamdclt 2mo ago

the vast majority of people have not taken Marketing 101, and it'd be strange to expect them to have. I know you're not literally talking about a Marketing 101 course, but the point is the same

generj 2mo ago
I’m not talking about a literal Marketing 101 course, but I’m also not entirely facetious about this all being taught in a first or second Marketing class (having attended those). I agree we should not expect everyone to have taken a marketing class - but I sure expect the author of the piece to have demonstrated some curiosity about some of the terms. And we know they did, because the author decoded them into plainer language in their table. So why present these elements as an abnormal thing for McDonald’s to compute about them, rather than something an undergrad might be expected to compute as part of a project?

AlexandrB 2mo ago

What people think of these programs is often linked to the perception of the product being sold. If a cigarette company did this, people would be pissed. McDonalds is kind of an edge case - everyone knows it's not great for you, but it's not as harmful as cigarettes or drinking so you get mixed takes. The classic case here is Target inferring that someone was pregnant before her family did[1] - so yeah, this is nothing new. [1] https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-target-figured-out-a-teen-girl-was-pregnant-before-her-father-did/ https://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2012/02/16/how-targ...

clintonb 2mo ago
Altria already does this to some extent. See their Digital Trade Program.
kjs3 2mo ago
Where it gets "you really should care about this" are things like your insurance carrier using this sort of data (which is for sale to all comers) to, say, increase your premiums under the guise of "your 2 Big Mac a week habit makes you a bigger risk".
- tiahura 2mo ago
  Insurance is about accurately pricing risk, not subsidizing covert risky behaviors. Why shouldn't they consider your diet?
  - RevEng 2mo ago
    I don't want them to. I'm not giving them that data myself and I don't consent to McDonalds giving them that data either, where that data is something I have to McDonalds. It's about information asymmetry.
  - kjs3 2mo ago
    I would like to assume that people aren't generally so ignorant of how insurance works that they think the risk of eating two big macs a week could be accurately priced in and that insurance companies would not just use the fact of eating a couple to justify an unsupported by actuarial analysis rate increase. Once again, my assumptions of people prove misguided.

yesco 2mo ago

Yeah I walked into this with my pitchfork ready but isn't this stuff pretty... reasonable? McDonalds is just a restaurant, they predict what menu items you like and how likely you will come back, is that really a problem? What is the concern here? I don't use their app but presumably for those that do, isn't this exactly the type of data that would simply influence whether the app offers a coupon or something? Or how well a franchise is doing? Maybe also what to keep on the menu or how much to stock? What exactly is the bar here I wonder? McDonalds has security cameras, it also has menu kiosks with cameras (I think?). The alternate reality evil tech-like McDonalds could have theoretically used facial recognition to categorize all footage of any given customer, then used this footage to estimate their friends, spouse, BMI, age, gender, ethnic group, attractivness, disability, etc. They could then sell it to third party data brokers for extra cash. That would certainly be the kind of dystopian surveillance to get me swinging my pitchfork around, but this? Having assumed the worst I'm now walking away realizing McDonalds might not be so bad after all.

BeetleB 2mo ago

Yeah I kept reading the article and thinking ... "This seems reasonable." "This seems fine." It also wasn't clear how much of the data they have is because he's using the app. If it is, it seems much/most of the data was in his control. Do they think McDonalds (or whichever company) is going to spend a lot of money building an app and a rewards program and not expect an ROI on it?

Ylpertnodi 2mo ago
They could increase the price of their product. Or, cut employee wages.
Jeremy1026 2mo ago
I do wonder what was included in the other 510 pages of data that wasn't talked about though.
- BeetleB 2mo ago
  My best guess is: Nothing interesting. If there were, then he's being a really sloppy journalist for not telling us.