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Right, and I think any serious civilizational benefit of drugs in the sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doe

Right, and I think any serious civilizational benefit of drugs in the sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doesn't exist. That's sorta what I mean: "where big, false; where true, not big."

embedding-shape 2mo ago
> sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doesn't exist It's a interesting train of thought if nothing else. How would we "prove" a thing like "humanity benefits from being able to create, share and read books?" for example? Or that we can organize in grassroot movements? It's also really hard to qualify directly, as the impact is so indirect. Same with psychedelics, a lot of scientists, researchers, creatives or even business-people attribute psychedelic usage to some of their success in their fields, but how can we really know if it was because of that or not?
gyomu 2mo ago
> any serious civilizational benefit of drugs in the sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven If you do want to get into the "where big": Shamanic/ritual/religious/social practices that wholly involve hallucinatory experiences (both with and without the aid of hallucinogenic substances) are well attested and documented throughout human development. So the existence is there; if you want to argue that actually it was a Bad Thing for human collectives, from Siberia to the Amazon, from 50k years ago to the present day, to engage in these practices and that they'd have been much better off Not Doing It, I guess the burden of that proof is on you?
- FeepingCreature 2mo ago
  I don't think it was a Bad Thing; I'm not at all convinced it was a Good Thing. A Thing not being actively deleterious is enough to reach fixation.
psd1 2mo ago
I guess you'd agree with Bertrand Russell that "it's never an advantage to believe something that isn't true". It is one of my favourite quotes. However, i think it only holds amongst intellects of his calibre. I've come to the position that false beliefs aren't necessarily harmful, in the context of proles who already believe a lot of wrong things. I mean, people claim therapeutic benefits to psychedelics, and there is some evidence.

embedding-shape 2mo ago

> sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven, and benefit in the hallucinatory regime doesn't exist It's a interesting train of thought if nothing else. How would we "prove" a thing like "humanity benefits from being able to create, share and read books?" for example? Or that we can organize in grassroot movements? It's also really hard to qualify directly, as the impact is so indirect. Same with psychedelics, a lot of scientists, researchers, creatives or even business-people attribute psychedelic usage to some of their success in their fields, but how can we really know if it was because of that or not?

gyomu 2mo ago

> any serious civilizational benefit of drugs in the sub-hallucinatory regime is at least unproven If you do want to get into the "where big": Shamanic/ritual/religious/social practices that wholly involve hallucinatory experiences (both with and without the aid of hallucinogenic substances) are well attested and documented throughout human development. So the existence is there; if you want to argue that actually it was a Bad Thing for human collectives, from Siberia to the Amazon, from 50k years ago to the present day, to engage in these practices and that they'd have been much better off Not Doing It, I guess the burden of that proof is on you?

FeepingCreature 2mo ago
I don't think it was a Bad Thing; I'm not at all convinced it was a Good Thing. A Thing not being actively deleterious is enough to reach fixation.

psd1 2mo ago

I guess you'd agree with Bertrand Russell that "it's never an advantage to believe something that isn't true". It is one of my favourite quotes. However, i think it only holds amongst intellects of his calibre. I've come to the position that false beliefs aren't necessarily harmful, in the context of proles who already believe a lot of wrong things. I mean, people claim therapeutic benefits to psychedelics, and there is some evidence.