2 ms·

I've been programming in Common Lisp for a quarter century and that list item made me cringe.

by aidenn0 2mo ago

kazinator 2mo ago
I'm into Lisp because Lisp languages are easy to work in. I advocate the family as being good for nonprogrammers. Small children should learn some kind of Lisp, and easily can. Richard Stallman famously shared an anecdote in the article "My Lisp Experiences and the Development of GNU Emacs" (https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html) about the secretaries: > The editor itself was written entirely in Lisp. Multics Emacs proved to be a great success—programming new editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the secretaries, who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things and they learned to program. People, whether inside or outside of Lisp, who spread myths that that it is some scary, esoteric elite family of languages, have been pretty harmful.
- deterministic 2mo ago
  Game designers in the games industry use Lua (and other script languages) all the time without being programmers. That doesn't mean that those languages are more "elite" than others. Also, I taught myself machine code programming when I was 11. Just using a book (no help, no internet). So don't underestimate what kids can learn.
  - anonzzzies 2mo ago
    > Also, I taught myself machine code programming when I was 11. Yep, and I didn't know assembly/assemblers were a thing (as they were not in magazines), so I typed and still type (for fun) everything in HEX. data 3E,0A,etc.
  - wk_end 2mo ago
    I think the comment that you're replying to is saying exactly the opposite - a language that anyone including non-programmers can use, if you consider the strict definition of the word, isn't "elite".
- 4xel 2mo ago
  Wholheartedly agree! Even as someone who loves a challenge, has a high opinion of themselves, and knew would love LISP, I postponed diving into it longer than I wish I had, on the mistaken assumption it would be pretty hard. Still, I don't think it's wrong to say LISP is for the elite. It is harmful when it's implied it's only for the elite, but being for the elite is not exclusive with being easy to learn, or being good for newcommers. Heck, lisp minimal syntax is probably what bridges the two, and it (s expression, and lack of m expressions) was explicitly petitioned for by early lispers, for reasons which likely make them a similar elite than present day lisp enjoyers. Likewise, appeal to the masses does not equate ease of learning, or even anti-elitism. It certainly is a common marketing point, but familiarity is what really matters. Emacs has never been so good, Microsoft Office is a good decade or two deep in enshittification, and guess what modern day secretaries use?
  - herewulf 2mo ago
    They use the software that is pre-installed on their computer.

I've been programming in Common Lisp for a quarter century and that list item made me cringe.

by aidenn0 2mo ago

I've been programming in Common Lisp for a quarter century and that list item made me cringe.

I'm into Lisp because Lisp languages are easy to work in. I advocate the family as being good for nonprogrammers. Small children should learn some kind of Lisp, and easily can. Richard Stallman famously shared an anecdote in the article "My Lisp Experiences and the Development of GNU Emacs" (https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html https://www.gnu.org/gnu/rms-lisp.en.html) about the secretaries: > The editor itself was written entirely in Lisp. Multics Emacs proved to be a great success—programming new editing commands was so convenient that even the secretaries in his office started learning how to use it. They used a manual someone had written which showed how to extend Emacs, but didn't say it was a programming. So the secretaries, who believed they couldn't do programming, weren't scared off. They read the manual, discovered they could do useful things and they learned to program. People, whether inside or outside of Lisp, who spread myths that that it is some scary, esoteric elite family of languages, have been pretty harmful.

deterministic 2mo ago
Game designers in the games industry use Lua (and other script languages) all the time without being programmers. That doesn't mean that those languages are more "elite" than others. Also, I taught myself machine code programming when I was 11. Just using a book (no help, no internet). So don't underestimate what kids can learn.
- anonzzzies 2mo ago
  > Also, I taught myself machine code programming when I was 11. Yep, and I didn't know assembly/assemblers were a thing (as they were not in magazines), so I typed and still type (for fun) everything in HEX. data 3E,0A,etc.
- wk_end 2mo ago
  I think the comment that you're replying to is saying exactly the opposite - a language that anyone including non-programmers can use, if you consider the strict definition of the word, isn't "elite".
4xel 2mo ago
Wholheartedly agree! Even as someone who loves a challenge, has a high opinion of themselves, and knew would love LISP, I postponed diving into it longer than I wish I had, on the mistaken assumption it would be pretty hard. Still, I don't think it's wrong to say LISP is for the elite. It is harmful when it's implied it's only for the elite, but being for the elite is not exclusive with being easy to learn, or being good for newcommers. Heck, lisp minimal syntax is probably what bridges the two, and it (s expression, and lack of m expressions) was explicitly petitioned for by early lispers, for reasons which likely make them a similar elite than present day lisp enjoyers. Likewise, appeal to the masses does not equate ease of learning, or even anti-elitism. It certainly is a common marketing point, but familiarity is what really matters. Emacs has never been so good, Microsoft Office is a good decade or two deep in enshittification, and guess what modern day secretaries use?
- herewulf 2mo ago
  They use the software that is pre-installed on their computer.