5 ms·

It sucks that this is how it works, but that is what the survey is for. They already know all the answers, they just want to see how you respond. For eg. they

by nikcub 14y ago

It sucks that this is how it works, but that is what the survey is for. They already know all the answers, they just want to see how you respond. For eg. they already know the date, your flight number, your passport number, your history - it is all about getting you in a situation where you answer questions and can be analyzed. The Isrealis are really good at it. They realized that security through innspecting every person and every square centimeter of luggage is too expensive and isn't as effective. A lot of their security at airports depends on picking out people and just asking them a random question or two ('why are you here') and seeing the response. If you have ever been asked the time, or the directions to the mens room, or about a flight from a tourist looking person at an Israel airport, chances are that they may have been an agent. There is a front-line of plain clothed who look around on the ground and pass on potential targets to uniformed officers. There was a paper I remember reading sub-titled "Can you really catch terrorist by asking them if they are terrorists" and the conclusion was that yes, you can - and you do - and not because you know they will answer 'no', but by how they answer and their body language, among other factors (much of which modern governments keep secret). There was sometime in how your brother answered that steered them towards not allowing him in. There are a lot of people who also make similar mistakes on immigration forms and are still let in.

alastair 14y ago
Article is here if anyone is interested (saves you a google) - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1336571/Terrorism-Can-really-stop-bomber-asking-Are-terrorist.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1336571/Terr...
godDLL 14y ago
It works so well for us because nobody, and I literally mean no other state in the world speaks THE LANGUAGE. When you grow up here you get used to being around all kinds that you previously never fully visualized as actual, walking-talking flesh-and-blood people. There's the Russian-speaking section to which I belong, the local Palestinians, the Ethiopian section, quite a lot of the Moroccan people, as well as many small _Iraqi / Druzi / some part of Europe that speaks not-quite-Russian_ escapees. They all have their quirky chains of characteristic behaviours and you sort of learn to place people in those groups pretty fast. And yes, all of them have children that've grown up here, and fuck all knows what group any of them belong to (unless they look and act like their parents). Israel is a sort of an ISLAND, and as anyone who visited Japan will tell you islanders are WEIRD. And sensitive to foreigners.
- Strshps1MoreTim 14y ago
  Interesting, do Arabs pretend to be Jews to pass the security?
  - justin66 14y ago
    Arab Jews certainly don't.
  - wolf550e 14y ago
    That's a strange question. How do you "pretend" something when the security personnel have your passport information, and for citizens, a lot more?
    - Strshps1MoreTim 14y ago
      E.g. by buying a fake russian passport for $200, stating your nationality is Jewish.
      - jacquesm 14y ago
        It would be a career limiting move - to put it mildly - to try to pass Israeli immigration with a fake $200 passport that states that you are Jewish when you're not.
barrkel 14y ago
They already know all the answers That's nonsense. Ever commit "moral turpitude"? You'd need to be a historian of the law to know what they're on about, and the peons behind the desks certainly don't know all the answers. They also didn't know how to interpret my H-1B after my division was purchased by another company, even at the supervisor level, though I had a thick binder from the company lawyers to explain it all - I didn't use it in the end, I did the visa waiver instead. I'd maintain that almost all people would be turned back by CBP if their lives were inspected closely enough and the laws and questions interpreted literally enough. It's a game; you need to know which questions they think they have the answer to, and answer as expected for them; and admit no wrongdoing elsewhere. And you may still end up with a jobsworth behind the counter - though my experience of most CBP personnel is that they are reasonably cheerful and pleasant.
- nikcub 14y ago
  I'm talking about customs and immigration clearance, not visa applications. All flights into the USA are now pre-screened with airlines forwarding all passenger info prior to departure. They literally know all the answers and have no real need for the cards you fill out. edit: I don't have the link with me atm, but there was a Wired (I believe) story about the center that is responsible for collecting all the data in pre-screening and the technical challenge. As inputs they have airline data and data exchange agreements with governments that are part of the visa waiver program, amongst others
  - barrkel 14y ago
    I've entered the US 15 times in the past 5 years; I've been through the transition from filling out forms in the arrivals hall, to getting landing cards with your boarding pass, to ESTA pre-authorization. I've gone through with visas and without, I've gone through the US embassy process etc.; I've even sometimes gone through CBP before I left Europe, in Shannon. They still ask stupid questions, whether it's on a website or on paper.
- illuminate 14y ago
  They're not asking what thoughtcrimes/sins you've committed, they're asking you directly if you've ever been arrested, which they ~do~ know the circumstances of.
jacquesm 14y ago
> There was sometime in how your brother answered that steered them towards not allowing him in. Are you a mind reader? If not how do you know that? All I see is an overzealous border guard refusing a family to enter a country to spend their money on a holiday. Lose-Lose. And dumb to boot.
- knowaveragejoe 14y ago
  On the other hand, you don't want to be the guy who let in a person who then goes on to commit an act of terrorism(or any crime, really). With that in mind, I can understand the guard airing on the side of caution, even if it is a bit ridiculous in this case.
  - jacquesm 14y ago
    There's a simple cure for that: Isolationism. Simply close your borders and call it a day.

by nikcub 14y ago

alastair 14y ago

Article is here if anyone is interested (saves you a google) - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1336571/Terrorism-Can-really-stop-bomber-asking-Are-terrorist.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1336571/Terr...

godDLL 14y ago

It works so well for us because nobody, and I literally mean no other state in the world speaks THE LANGUAGE. When you grow up here you get used to being around all kinds that you previously never fully visualized as actual, walking-talking flesh-and-blood people. There's the Russian-speaking section to which I belong, the local Palestinians, the Ethiopian section, quite a lot of the Moroccan people, as well as many small _Iraqi / Druzi / some part of Europe that speaks not-quite-Russian_ escapees. They all have their quirky chains of characteristic behaviours and you sort of learn to place people in those groups pretty fast. And yes, all of them have children that've grown up here, and fuck all knows what group any of them belong to (unless they look and act like their parents). Israel is a sort of an ISLAND, and as anyone who visited Japan will tell you islanders are WEIRD. And sensitive to foreigners.

Strshps1MoreTim 14y ago
Interesting, do Arabs pretend to be Jews to pass the security?
- justin66 14y ago
  Arab Jews certainly don't.
- wolf550e 14y ago
  That's a strange question. How do you "pretend" something when the security personnel have your passport information, and for citizens, a lot more?
  - Strshps1MoreTim 14y ago
    E.g. by buying a fake russian passport for $200, stating your nationality is Jewish.
    - jacquesm 14y ago
      It would be a career limiting move - to put it mildly - to try to pass Israeli immigration with a fake $200 passport that states that you are Jewish when you're not.

barrkel 14y ago

They already know all the answers That's nonsense. Ever commit "moral turpitude"? You'd need to be a historian of the law to know what they're on about, and the peons behind the desks certainly don't know all the answers. They also didn't know how to interpret my H-1B after my division was purchased by another company, even at the supervisor level, though I had a thick binder from the company lawyers to explain it all - I didn't use it in the end, I did the visa waiver instead. I'd maintain that almost all people would be turned back by CBP if their lives were inspected closely enough and the laws and questions interpreted literally enough. It's a game; you need to know which questions they think they have the answer to, and answer as expected for them; and admit no wrongdoing elsewhere. And you may still end up with a jobsworth behind the counter - though my experience of most CBP personnel is that they are reasonably cheerful and pleasant.

nikcub 14y ago
I'm talking about customs and immigration clearance, not visa applications. All flights into the USA are now pre-screened with airlines forwarding all passenger info prior to departure. They literally know all the answers and have no real need for the cards you fill out. edit: I don't have the link with me atm, but there was a Wired (I believe) story about the center that is responsible for collecting all the data in pre-screening and the technical challenge. As inputs they have airline data and data exchange agreements with governments that are part of the visa waiver program, amongst others
- barrkel 14y ago
  I've entered the US 15 times in the past 5 years; I've been through the transition from filling out forms in the arrivals hall, to getting landing cards with your boarding pass, to ESTA pre-authorization. I've gone through with visas and without, I've gone through the US embassy process etc.; I've even sometimes gone through CBP before I left Europe, in Shannon. They still ask stupid questions, whether it's on a website or on paper.
illuminate 14y ago
They're not asking what thoughtcrimes/sins you've committed, they're asking you directly if you've ever been arrested, which they ~do~ know the circumstances of.

jacquesm 14y ago

> There was sometime in how your brother answered that steered them towards not allowing him in. Are you a mind reader? If not how do you know that? All I see is an overzealous border guard refusing a family to enter a country to spend their money on a holiday. Lose-Lose. And dumb to boot.

knowaveragejoe 14y ago
On the other hand, you don't want to be the guy who let in a person who then goes on to commit an act of terrorism(or any crime, really). With that in mind, I can understand the guard airing on the side of caution, even if it is a bit ridiculous in this case.
- jacquesm 14y ago
  There's a simple cure for that: Isolationism. Simply close your borders and call it a day.