10 ms·

> allow databases about U.S. civilians to be handed over to foreign governments for analysis, presumably so that they too can attempt to determine future crimin

by nnq 14y ago

> allow databases about U.S. civilians to be handed over to foreign governments for analysis, presumably so that they too can attempt to determine future criminal actions ...where on the line did these guys lost the "innocent until proven guilty" part?! (the possibility of your government handing personal data of innocent civilians to foreign governments sounds "out of your freakyn minds" even for a foreigner like me! Imagine someone coming to the US in attempt to flee from an oppressive government and data about his whereabouts getting to a contract killer via an "en masse" exchange of data about "suspicious" civilians between governments...) ...keep it like this and the USA will be the last place on Earth someone would want to emigrate to, either to work or to open a business!!!

buro9 14y ago
It's been happening in the other direction for a number of years now. My brother was turned back when he flew to Miami with his family to take his children to Disney World. It turned out that because he had been arrested aged 19 and failed to declare it that the border people felt that he had answered fraudulantly when challenged on "Have you ever been arrested?". My brother answered no because whilst he was arrested he was never charged or convicted. He had attended a demonstration in the North of England and when a few people caused trouble the police had just arrested everyone only to release the vast majority some hours later. He'd forgotten about this because nothing had ever actually come of it and it was over 20 years ago, yet there he was being confronted by it at a US border. Clearly the UK authorities already share data with the USA on its citizens, even those never charged or convicted. That it may happen more does not surprise me the least. The only part that surprises me is that the data flow might go the other way too.
- Semiapies 14y ago
  Police records are routinely exchanged between various countries. This is an entirely different matter.
- Create 14y ago
  I suspect it only goes the other way mainly in such minor, insignificant cases to build up the stats to satisfy the bilateral agreements, which go back for a long time. This is what Churchill meant by "special relationship" and the agreement which Tony Benn oversaw when he was in office. The price set for the Polaris was Her Majesty's subjects' data. All of it. My brother answered no because whilst he was arrested he was never charged or convicted -> http://craphound.com/littlebrother/ http://craphound.com/littlebrother/ http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/21783-the-government-is-profiling-you http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/21783-the-government-is-profili...
  - standingstone 14y ago
    Tony Blair I'd say. Not Tony Benn's sort of thing at all!
    - Create 14y ago
      Like most politicians, Tony Benn changed with time. Although in the unlikely way: the other way around. Tony Blair wasn't around Nassau (Trident, the successor to Polaris, was signed off by Thatcher, and it also precedes Blair). youtu.be/rokTiJfL4WY
      - standingstone 14y ago
        Sorry, I was about as wrong as is possible!
        Create 14y ago
        no problem, History isn't simple (for many reasons) Certainly, the presence of nuclear weapons on their territory involves, for Europeans, multiple risks. Many of them are similar to the risks and dangers faced by the citizens of any of the countries possessing an atomic arsenal. The usefulness and desirability of which may be subject to debate. Including whether the risks are worth to be taken in the service of a politico-military strategy of national defence (or, conversely, must be rejected in view of universal peace and total disarmament). It is up to each and everyone to take a stance according to their beliefs, their world views, their perception and ranking of hazards, et cetera. For us here, all this is irrelevant. Because in this case, the question does not even arise. Thanks to another dimension of NATO nuclear "sharing", which is highly reflective of transatlantic relations. Whereas in the nuclear power countries the debate can focus on the articulation of the nuclear force with an overall strategy (importance attributed, or not, to the concept of deterrence), here, to the contrary, the (U.S.) nuclear force, and the myth of the protective umbrella that accompanies it, is a pretext used to justify the lack of (European) strategy. As well as providing a comfortable smokescreen that allows the governments of the old continent to stay, ultimately, flawlessly aligned on the United States – even if this means to become accomplices of a nuclear strategy in the development and implementation of which they cannot even dream of having a little bit of say. Alas, they already feel happy when they are, more or less correctly and more or less timely, informed on the subject.
- barking 14y ago
  It turned out that because he had been arrested aged 19 and failed to declare it that the border people felt that he had answered fraudulantly when challenged on "Have you ever been arrested?". What interpretation should they have taken from it?
  - Create 14y ago
    For example, that since Clinton also answered fraudulently when challenged, he shouldn't be allowed to fly either. Nixon got caught too -- I presume he also did fly afterwards. But obviously some are more equal; 1984 Was Not Supposed To Be An Instruction Manual.
    - chrisbennet 14y ago
      He was turned back because he lied (unknowingly) when the asked him if he'd been arrested.
      - betterunix 14y ago
        I have to wonder if they actually expect people to be honest about that. You paid a lot for that plane ticket, and these people can turn you away for what amounts to any arbitrary reason. Would you really want to tell them about how "undesirable" you are?
        brian_cloutier 14y ago
        Apparently they do, if you are turned away for not being honest.
        jacquesm 14y ago
        You're phrasing this as if he was dishonest, but he may have been merely forgetful. Ask me what I did 20 years ago and I probably wouldn't know either. Was that time I got taken into a police station for driving a French car in the Netherlands an arrest or not? I really don't know and I think if I judged that I'd never been arrested (not charged, nothing heard from since) that I would be on the right side of that line. So this could easily happen to me. Or, it could happen to me if I still came to the US, which I don't.
- nikcub 14y ago
  It sucks that this is how it works, but that is what the survey is for. They already know all the answers, they just want to see how you respond. For eg. they already know the date, your flight number, your passport number, your history - it is all about getting you in a situation where you answer questions and can be analyzed. The Isrealis are really good at it. They realized that security through innspecting every person and every square centimeter of luggage is too expensive and isn't as effective. A lot of their security at airports depends on picking out people and just asking them a random question or two ('why are you here') and seeing the response. If you have ever been asked the time, or the directions to the mens room, or about a flight from a tourist looking person at an Israel airport, chances are that they may have been an agent. There is a front-line of plain clothed who look around on the ground and pass on potential targets to uniformed officers. There was a paper I remember reading sub-titled "Can you really catch terrorist by asking them if they are terrorists" and the conclusion was that yes, you can - and you do - and not because you know they will answer 'no', but by how they answer and their body language, among other factors (much of which modern governments keep secret). There was sometime in how your brother answered that steered them towards not allowing him in. There are a lot of people who also make similar mistakes on immigration forms and are still let in.
  - alastair 14y ago
    Article is here if anyone is interested (saves you a google) - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1336571/Terrorism-Can-really-stop-bomber-asking-Are-terrorist.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1336571/Terr...
  - godDLL 14y ago
    It works so well for us because nobody, and I literally mean no other state in the world speaks THE LANGUAGE. When you grow up here you get used to being around all kinds that you previously never fully visualized as actual, walking-talking flesh-and-blood people. There's the Russian-speaking section to which I belong, the local Palestinians, the Ethiopian section, quite a lot of the Moroccan people, as well as many small _Iraqi / Druzi / some part of Europe that speaks not-quite-Russian_ escapees. They all have their quirky chains of characteristic behaviours and you sort of learn to place people in those groups pretty fast. And yes, all of them have children that've grown up here, and fuck all knows what group any of them belong to (unless they look and act like their parents). Israel is a sort of an ISLAND, and as anyone who visited Japan will tell you islanders are WEIRD. And sensitive to foreigners.
- tsotha 14y ago
  Well, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy for him. They didn't ask if he was convicted, right? They asked if he'd been arrested. And he lied.
mtgx 14y ago
If I want to fly to Latin America from Europe, I'd rather make the stop for the second plane in Europe, and then go straight to Latin America, than make the stop in US. I just don't want to deal with TSA in any way, especially after stories that now they even have data on what you tweeted and stuff like that, and they can take you aside or even arrest you for a while because of that. Will TSA consider me "suspicious" just because I tweeted articles such as this one? Or maybe some Wikileaks-related articles or some OWS articles? That is ridiculous, and I don't even want to risk that by flying through the country, let alone want to live there (which is something I really wanted to do before). The world's view on America is changing fast and the view is increasingly more negative. The world wants America to be its role model, something to aspire to, and a place where they want to live in. It doesn't want to see an America as the bully of the world, or a bully even of its own citizens. So yes, I do think this will impact tourism, cloud businesses, as well as other type of businesses, if they keep going down this road of increasing surveillance and more government abuses, not only against Americans, but against foreigners, too.
- barking 14y ago
  OTOH they've been pretty successful at preventing attacks on America since 9/11.
  - oelmekki 14y ago
    Well, they've been very good at preventing attacks before 9/11, too.
  - keithpeter 14y ago
    There has not been a major attack on US soil since 9/11. This may or may not be because of the level of security apparent in airports. You can't tell.
  - a3_nm 14y ago
    Do you have any evidence to suggest that the absence of 9/11-like attacks has anything to do with the TSA?

by nnq 14y ago

buro9 14y ago

It's been happening in the other direction for a number of years now. My brother was turned back when he flew to Miami with his family to take his children to Disney World. It turned out that because he had been arrested aged 19 and failed to declare it that the border people felt that he had answered fraudulantly when challenged on "Have you ever been arrested?". My brother answered no because whilst he was arrested he was never charged or convicted. He had attended a demonstration in the North of England and when a few people caused trouble the police had just arrested everyone only to release the vast majority some hours later. He'd forgotten about this because nothing had ever actually come of it and it was over 20 years ago, yet there he was being confronted by it at a US border. Clearly the UK authorities already share data with the USA on its citizens, even those never charged or convicted. That it may happen more does not surprise me the least. The only part that surprises me is that the data flow might go the other way too.

Semiapies 14y ago
Police records are routinely exchanged between various countries. This is an entirely different matter.
Create 14y ago
I suspect it only goes the other way mainly in such minor, insignificant cases to build up the stats to satisfy the bilateral agreements, which go back for a long time. This is what Churchill meant by "special relationship" and the agreement which Tony Benn oversaw when he was in office. The price set for the Polaris was Her Majesty's subjects' data. All of it. My brother answered no because whilst he was arrested he was never charged or convicted -> http://craphound.com/littlebrother/ http://craphound.com/littlebrother/ http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/21783-the-government-is-profiling-you http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/21783-the-government-is-profili...
- standingstone 14y ago
  Tony Blair I'd say. Not Tony Benn's sort of thing at all!
  - Create 14y ago
    Like most politicians, Tony Benn changed with time. Although in the unlikely way: the other way around. Tony Blair wasn't around Nassau (Trident, the successor to Polaris, was signed off by Thatcher, and it also precedes Blair). youtu.be/rokTiJfL4WY
    - standingstone 14y ago
      Sorry, I was about as wrong as is possible!
      - Create 14y ago
        no problem, History isn't simple (for many reasons) Certainly, the presence of nuclear weapons on their territory involves, for Europeans, multiple risks. Many of them are similar to the risks and dangers faced by the citizens of any of the countries possessing an atomic arsenal. The usefulness and desirability of which may be subject to debate. Including whether the risks are worth to be taken in the service of a politico-military strategy of national defence (or, conversely, must be rejected in view of universal peace and total disarmament). It is up to each and everyone to take a stance according to their beliefs, their world views, their perception and ranking of hazards, et cetera. For us here, all this is irrelevant. Because in this case, the question does not even arise. Thanks to another dimension of NATO nuclear "sharing", which is highly reflective of transatlantic relations. Whereas in the nuclear power countries the debate can focus on the articulation of the nuclear force with an overall strategy (importance attributed, or not, to the concept of deterrence), here, to the contrary, the (U.S.) nuclear force, and the myth of the protective umbrella that accompanies it, is a pretext used to justify the lack of (European) strategy. As well as providing a comfortable smokescreen that allows the governments of the old continent to stay, ultimately, flawlessly aligned on the United States – even if this means to become accomplices of a nuclear strategy in the development and implementation of which they cannot even dream of having a little bit of say. Alas, they already feel happy when they are, more or less correctly and more or less timely, informed on the subject.
barking 14y ago
It turned out that because he had been arrested aged 19 and failed to declare it that the border people felt that he had answered fraudulantly when challenged on "Have you ever been arrested?". What interpretation should they have taken from it?
- Create 14y ago
  For example, that since Clinton also answered fraudulently when challenged, he shouldn't be allowed to fly either. Nixon got caught too -- I presume he also did fly afterwards. But obviously some are more equal; 1984 Was Not Supposed To Be An Instruction Manual.
  - chrisbennet 14y ago
    He was turned back because he lied (unknowingly) when the asked him if he'd been arrested.
    - betterunix 14y ago
      I have to wonder if they actually expect people to be honest about that. You paid a lot for that plane ticket, and these people can turn you away for what amounts to any arbitrary reason. Would you really want to tell them about how "undesirable" you are?
      - brian_cloutier 14y ago
        Apparently they do, if you are turned away for not being honest.
        jacquesm 14y ago
        You're phrasing this as if he was dishonest, but he may have been merely forgetful. Ask me what I did 20 years ago and I probably wouldn't know either. Was that time I got taken into a police station for driving a French car in the Netherlands an arrest or not? I really don't know and I think if I judged that I'd never been arrested (not charged, nothing heard from since) that I would be on the right side of that line. So this could easily happen to me. Or, it could happen to me if I still came to the US, which I don't.
nikcub 14y ago
It sucks that this is how it works, but that is what the survey is for. They already know all the answers, they just want to see how you respond. For eg. they already know the date, your flight number, your passport number, your history - it is all about getting you in a situation where you answer questions and can be analyzed. The Isrealis are really good at it. They realized that security through innspecting every person and every square centimeter of luggage is too expensive and isn't as effective. A lot of their security at airports depends on picking out people and just asking them a random question or two ('why are you here') and seeing the response. If you have ever been asked the time, or the directions to the mens room, or about a flight from a tourist looking person at an Israel airport, chances are that they may have been an agent. There is a front-line of plain clothed who look around on the ground and pass on potential targets to uniformed officers. There was a paper I remember reading sub-titled "Can you really catch terrorist by asking them if they are terrorists" and the conclusion was that yes, you can - and you do - and not because you know they will answer 'no', but by how they answer and their body language, among other factors (much of which modern governments keep secret). There was sometime in how your brother answered that steered them towards not allowing him in. There are a lot of people who also make similar mistakes on immigration forms and are still let in.
- alastair 14y ago
  Article is here if anyone is interested (saves you a google) - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1336571/Terrorism-Can-really-stop-bomber-asking-Are-terrorist.html http://www.dailymail.co.uk/home/moslive/article-1336571/Terr...
- godDLL 14y ago
  It works so well for us because nobody, and I literally mean no other state in the world speaks THE LANGUAGE. When you grow up here you get used to being around all kinds that you previously never fully visualized as actual, walking-talking flesh-and-blood people. There's the Russian-speaking section to which I belong, the local Palestinians, the Ethiopian section, quite a lot of the Moroccan people, as well as many small _Iraqi / Druzi / some part of Europe that speaks not-quite-Russian_ escapees. They all have their quirky chains of characteristic behaviours and you sort of learn to place people in those groups pretty fast. And yes, all of them have children that've grown up here, and fuck all knows what group any of them belong to (unless they look and act like their parents). Israel is a sort of an ISLAND, and as anyone who visited Japan will tell you islanders are WEIRD. And sensitive to foreigners.
tsotha 14y ago
Well, it's hard for me to feel much sympathy for him. They didn't ask if he was convicted, right? They asked if he'd been arrested. And he lied.

mtgx 14y ago

If I want to fly to Latin America from Europe, I'd rather make the stop for the second plane in Europe, and then go straight to Latin America, than make the stop in US. I just don't want to deal with TSA in any way, especially after stories that now they even have data on what you tweeted and stuff like that, and they can take you aside or even arrest you for a while because of that. Will TSA consider me "suspicious" just because I tweeted articles such as this one? Or maybe some Wikileaks-related articles or some OWS articles? That is ridiculous, and I don't even want to risk that by flying through the country, let alone want to live there (which is something I really wanted to do before). The world's view on America is changing fast and the view is increasingly more negative. The world wants America to be its role model, something to aspire to, and a place where they want to live in. It doesn't want to see an America as the bully of the world, or a bully even of its own citizens. So yes, I do think this will impact tourism, cloud businesses, as well as other type of businesses, if they keep going down this road of increasing surveillance and more government abuses, not only against Americans, but against foreigners, too.

barking 14y ago
OTOH they've been pretty successful at preventing attacks on America since 9/11.
- oelmekki 14y ago
  Well, they've been very good at preventing attacks before 9/11, too.
- keithpeter 14y ago
  There has not been a major attack on US soil since 9/11. This may or may not be because of the level of security apparent in airports. You can't tell.
- a3_nm 14y ago
  Do you have any evidence to suggest that the absence of 9/11-like attacks has anything to do with the TSA?