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I am currently in the countryside, outside of the USA. I speak to folks about the USA sometimes, and guns come up. We are known for that. They think they want

I am currently in the countryside, outside of the USA. I speak to folks about the USA sometimes, and guns come up. We are known for that. They think they want them. I get it... they do sound cool. I try to explain that in the USA, the ratio of guns to people is far above 1:1. Therefore, if I was a police officer approaching any car, I would assume that the driver had a gun. That reality increases the chances of bad things happening due to human factors. "Do you really want every speeding pull-over to become a twitchy wild-west situation? Maybe your kids are in the car!" Sometimes, this seems to wake people up to the reality of ubiquitous firearms. Please note, I am not making judgements here. These just seem like facts.

skinfaxi 2mo ago
> "Do you really want every speeding pull-over to become a wild-west situation? Maybe your kids are in the car!" Why would every speeding pull-over become a wild-west situation? If possessing a gun is a right, then mere possession is no reason to suspect criminality is afoot.
- Barbing 2mo ago
  What if you assume 1 in 100 are going to be dangerous? Only rarely does the driver say “I’m not going back to jail!“ when they have warrants out. If you inspect rollercoasters I figure you could probably be pretty lackadaisical on the average inspection. If you don’t take each one deadly seriously though and there’s no way of knowing when it’s important to, maybe it comes flying off the track, so you follow your checklist each and every time without exception. (So glad I’m not employed to or in a position where I need to own weapons.)
  - skinfaxi 2mo ago
    When in enemy territory, the military looks at civilian populations as potential enemy combatants. Police are not supposed to view everyone this way as they are in their communities and not enemy territory.
    - Barbing 2mo ago
      It’s both unfortunate police are trained with videos of cops approaching motorists and getting filled with bullets, and unfortunate those are real situations. I wish there were a way to guarantee officer safety so you didn’t have to tell them “domestic violence incidents and traffic stops should scare you” (most dangerous police situations IIRC). You reminded me of a salient line in BSG: “There’s a reason you separate the military and the police. One fights the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.” -Adama, Battlestar Galactica
      - skinfaxi 2mo ago
        That is indeed what I had in mind when writing my comment!
throw0101d 2mo ago
> I try to explain that in the USA, the ratio of guns to people is far above 1:1. Therefore, if I was a police officer approaching any car, I would assume that the driver had a gun. Except that majority of households (58%) do not have a firearm: * https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/24/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/24/key-facts... and when it comes to individuals, it is the majority (70%) that do not own one. The numbers are 'skewed' by a few individuals that own a lot of them. Statistically you'd be more correct to assume the person in the car does not have one (unless, perhaps, they're a white guy): * https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-dem...
- scottLobster 2mo ago
  Uh, if you had a 30% chance of encountering an armed individual as a cop, you'd damn well assume they were armed every time. That's one in three traffic stops, and you probably do a lot more than three as a cop. Keep in mind that number will be a lot higher depending on your locality. If I'm ever elected God Emperor of the United States I'm going to make beating XCOM 2 a high school graduation requirement just to impart some basic statistical intuition into the population. Everyone needs the experience of having a 99% chance to hit and missing the shot, let alone 70%.
  - throw0101d 2mo ago
    > Uh, if you had a 30% chance of encountering an armed individual as a cop, you'd damn well assume they were armed every time. I understand that thinking (see also 'would you play Russian roulette with those odds?'), but the "(>)1:1" comments hides the underlying distribution, which I think colours how people think about the (alleged) pervasiveness of firearms in the US. As another example of perception versus reality, most people probably don't think of Canada as 'gun country', but we're in the top ten per capita (probably because of the history/culture of hunting up here): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... And if you're going to teach people about odds and statistics, perhaps it will help people understand that guns tend to make people's homes less safe: * https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2013/03/guns-in-homes-a-health-hazard.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2013/03/guns-in-homes-a...
giantg2 2mo ago
"Do you really want every speeding pull-over to become a wild-west situation? Maybe your kids are in the car!" That sort of thing depends on what is "normal". Many states in the US could have around 10% of the population carrying a firearm. Armed interactions with the police are common and the vast majority are a non-issue. The typical police response to "I have a license to carry and a firearm in the vechicle" is typically "Where is it? Just don't touch it". Happens all the time. Now, is there a statistical difference? Maybe. It's hard to say because you would need to apply the same policing culture, legal system, and population dynamics to a lesser armed country. I don't know of any good choices for that combination.
- seanw444 2mo ago
  More than half the country doesn't even require a license to carry anymore, and mentioning it in those states also doesn't typically warrant anything more than an "alright just don't touch it."
computerex 2mo ago
While I agree with need more and better gun control, American police officers are abhorrent for a very simple reason: lack of basic training, discipline, and practically zero screening/qualification process. Anyone can become a cop in 6 months. Not everyone is temperamentally setup to be a great cop. That, there, lies the rub.
Draiken 2mo ago
Whether or not the people being investigated have guns or not, won't showing up with guns up escalate the situation rather than defuse? I would be absolutely terrified if people with guns came up to me, whether they're cops or not, and if I had a gun with me, I'd be much more likely to go for it in that scenario compared to a normal human interaction. But IDK, maybe I'm an outlier?
fedpost 2mo ago
What if we just didn't have as many police interactions? They love pulling people over because it let's them run everyone for warrants.
deleted 2mo ago
[deleted]

skinfaxi 2mo ago

> "Do you really want every speeding pull-over to become a wild-west situation? Maybe your kids are in the car!" Why would every speeding pull-over become a wild-west situation? If possessing a gun is a right, then mere possession is no reason to suspect criminality is afoot.

Barbing 2mo ago
What if you assume 1 in 100 are going to be dangerous? Only rarely does the driver say “I’m not going back to jail!“ when they have warrants out. If you inspect rollercoasters I figure you could probably be pretty lackadaisical on the average inspection. If you don’t take each one deadly seriously though and there’s no way of knowing when it’s important to, maybe it comes flying off the track, so you follow your checklist each and every time without exception. (So glad I’m not employed to or in a position where I need to own weapons.)
- skinfaxi 2mo ago
  When in enemy territory, the military looks at civilian populations as potential enemy combatants. Police are not supposed to view everyone this way as they are in their communities and not enemy territory.
  - Barbing 2mo ago
    It’s both unfortunate police are trained with videos of cops approaching motorists and getting filled with bullets, and unfortunate those are real situations. I wish there were a way to guarantee officer safety so you didn’t have to tell them “domestic violence incidents and traffic stops should scare you” (most dangerous police situations IIRC). You reminded me of a salient line in BSG: “There’s a reason you separate the military and the police. One fights the enemy of the state, the other serves and protects the people. When the military becomes both, then the enemies of the state tend to become the people.” -Adama, Battlestar Galactica
    - skinfaxi 2mo ago
      That is indeed what I had in mind when writing my comment!

throw0101d 2mo ago

> I try to explain that in the USA, the ratio of guns to people is far above 1:1. Therefore, if I was a police officer approaching any car, I would assume that the driver had a gun. Except that majority of households (58%) do not have a firearm: * https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/24/key-facts-about-americans-and-guns/ https://www.pewresearch.org/short-reads/2024/07/24/key-facts... and when it comes to individuals, it is the majority (70%) that do not own one. The numbers are 'skewed' by a few individuals that own a lot of them. Statistically you'd be more correct to assume the person in the car does not have one (unless, perhaps, they're a white guy): * https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-demographics-of-gun-ownership/ https://www.pewresearch.org/social-trends/2017/06/22/the-dem...

scottLobster 2mo ago
Uh, if you had a 30% chance of encountering an armed individual as a cop, you'd damn well assume they were armed every time. That's one in three traffic stops, and you probably do a lot more than three as a cop. Keep in mind that number will be a lot higher depending on your locality. If I'm ever elected God Emperor of the United States I'm going to make beating XCOM 2 a high school graduation requirement just to impart some basic statistical intuition into the population. Everyone needs the experience of having a 99% chance to hit and missing the shot, let alone 70%.
- throw0101d 2mo ago
  > Uh, if you had a 30% chance of encountering an armed individual as a cop, you'd damn well assume they were armed every time. I understand that thinking (see also 'would you play Russian roulette with those odds?'), but the "(>)1:1" comments hides the underlying distribution, which I think colours how people think about the (alleged) pervasiveness of firearms in the US. As another example of perception versus reality, most people probably don't think of Canada as 'gun country', but we're in the top ten per capita (probably because of the history/culture of hunting up here): * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_guns_per_capita_by_country https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estimated_number_of_civilian_g... And if you're going to teach people about odds and statistics, perhaps it will help people understand that guns tend to make people's homes less safe: * https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2013/03/guns-in-homes-a-health-hazard.html https://www.rand.org/pubs/commentary/2013/03/guns-in-homes-a...

giantg2 2mo ago

"Do you really want every speeding pull-over to become a wild-west situation? Maybe your kids are in the car!" That sort of thing depends on what is "normal". Many states in the US could have around 10% of the population carrying a firearm. Armed interactions with the police are common and the vast majority are a non-issue. The typical police response to "I have a license to carry and a firearm in the vechicle" is typically "Where is it? Just don't touch it". Happens all the time. Now, is there a statistical difference? Maybe. It's hard to say because you would need to apply the same policing culture, legal system, and population dynamics to a lesser armed country. I don't know of any good choices for that combination.

seanw444 2mo ago
More than half the country doesn't even require a license to carry anymore, and mentioning it in those states also doesn't typically warrant anything more than an "alright just don't touch it."

computerex 2mo ago

While I agree with need more and better gun control, American police officers are abhorrent for a very simple reason: lack of basic training, discipline, and practically zero screening/qualification process. Anyone can become a cop in 6 months. Not everyone is temperamentally setup to be a great cop. That, there, lies the rub.

Draiken 2mo ago

Whether or not the people being investigated have guns or not, won't showing up with guns up escalate the situation rather than defuse? I would be absolutely terrified if people with guns came up to me, whether they're cops or not, and if I had a gun with me, I'd be much more likely to go for it in that scenario compared to a normal human interaction. But IDK, maybe I'm an outlier?

fedpost 2mo ago

What if we just didn't have as many police interactions? They love pulling people over because it let's them run everyone for warrants.

deleted 2mo ago

[deleted]